Keeney Angus-Business as Usual Sale

southpaw wrote:

Been awhile since I been on here. Would like it mike if you could email me a "catalog". We are getting along pretty well since the fire. Finally able to keep my head above water with all going on. The good news is I have a student teacher the next 8 weeks so that gives me some time to catch up on alot things.

Richie, good seeing you surface here again..glad everyone came through unscathed...I got my 19 cent catalog off to the printer this morning; will be emailing later today..pics the weekend of the most photogenic, at least

I have lost several email addresses in my transition to a faster computer to keep KC churning out good information, fun information, and even non-information, so anyone wanting a sale sheet should email me at mwkeeney1@windstream.net

anyone wanting a sale sheet should email me at mwkeeney1@windstream.net




Welcome to the Keeney Angus 2011 Business as Usual Bull and Heifer Sale, 12:30 pm, April 2, 2011 at the farm, 5 miles West of Somerset, KY on HWY 80...phone number 606-305-4501Here’s how the sale works…The animals will not be run through an auction ring. Each bull or heifer will have a very reasonable, pre-set base price. Each prospective buyer should register upon arrival and receive a buyer’s number, then inspect the offering and make notes on any bulls he may be interested in bidding on. The sale will start promptly at 12:30 PM and begin with pen 1, and proceed to sell choice of pens until completion. Any lot not receiving the minimum bid will be passed and be available after the sale at the minimum price.Terms and conditions- the cattle sell under the standard terms and conditions as suggested by the American Angus Association. All bulls have been breeding soundness evaluated and are guaranteed to be breeders. They are not guaranteed against injury after you take possession.Special Representatives- Dr. John Johns, retired UK extension specialist; Keenan Turner, retired Pulaski Co. Agent Buyers unable to attend the sale- should contact us before sale time and may have a representative bid for them, or may bid personally via the sale day telephone, 606-305-4501 or 606-305-6020.
Delivery- 100{note change} mile delivery is included in the purchase price of the bulls; however, we will deduct $100 on any bull picked up sale day or soon thereafter. We will guarantee any out of state bull sales to not cost the buyer more than $200/head. Heifers can be delivered at a cost of $2.25/loaded mile. We will assist in helping combine loads; although all reasonable care will be taken by us, animals become the responsibility of the buyer after April 2.Liability- All persons attending the sale do so at their own risk.
A complimentary lunch will be served...come early.The numbers are our best estimate of what our cattle will do based on our experiences and accumulated data. Of these, calving ease is the most difficult to predict since over half of the contribution to calving ease will be by the cow or heifer our bull is bred to. Our recommendations are
1-Longhorn alternative; no observation 2-heifer use, but observation recommended 3-heifer and cow use, but heifer observation a must 4-cows only
the other scores for milk, udder quality, temperament, and hair coat...1-5 with 5 best
SC..ave, plus, large...
the sires
718 Reg: AAA 15964977
The sire of the 4 registered bulls in the offering; easy calving, slick haired, from an infallible 18 year old cow.
6309 ...This bull’s first daughters have calved here; moderate sized, good udders, no problems; his influence will be concentrated here...one of our most pleasing sires ever.
Felix 2...a ton son of Felix 6310 we sold as a yearling; brought back as a 4 year old; used one year before injury.
the 29`s...126, 26, 17...all sons of a Shoshone bull stemming from the 29 lineage...more frame, good calving ease shape,
superior udders, and we think improved fertility exists in the ancestry

aww gee...a testimonial in my email...or maybe a critique...anyway, dead on IMUO...
Hey Mike,

I saw that the American Angus Association had a survey on their website. I thought that I would share my answer that I submitted to the first question with you.

I think it asked something about what the Association could do better. My answer was:

I have raised cattle all my life. I went strictly registered Angus several years ago because the breed always seemed to do everything well. I began by buying and using what was "SUPPOSEDLY" the best Angus genetics as the American Angus Association, Semen companies, and the larger ranches would have you believe. It didn't take me many years to realize that these "SUPPOSEDLY" best genetics will bankrupt you quickly. Despite having proper nutrition and health programs the cows became either too fat or thin and DO NOT produce calves every year as they should. Luckily I came upon a nearby Angus breeder who breeds Angus the way that cattle should be bred; for fertility and money making in a real world situation. He doesn't chase the BIG BUSINESS BULL... that is promoted by the Angus industry today that leaves so many farmers taking yearly losses and barely surviving. The Angus Association seems to cater to the BIG MONEY players and doesn't seem to care about what truly makes up the majority of the cattle business by pushing genetics that will make a farmer money. Most everyday Angus breeders cannot have $5000 per head bull sales where one Angus "Breeder/Politician" pays some ridiculous, ungodly price for the top lot so that that seller can do the same for him when he has a sale. Selling a registered/purebred/cross Angus at the local stockyard doesn't put anymore money in the pocket than most any other breed. If your cows aren't fertile or demand to be kept up in a Beverly Hills hotel in order to produce then the Angus Association and breed is going in the wrong direction. Also, with so little money being made in the cattle industry with the so called "MONEY MAKING GENETICS" I don't see that it was a good idea for the Association to raise their dues a few years back. It was hard enough to justify the $30 membership dues in such trying times, but now with the increase in dues I just cannot do it. I would like to see the dues come back to a more realistic $30.


Looking forward to your sale......

well, I had something in common with one buyer at the Sinclair sale today...he thought, as I did watching on the computer for a few minutes, that he bought lot 6 for $3500...I was thinking the bull wouldn`t have been too bad at that price...imagine the buyers shock when they said, $35,000

Quote :

well, I had something in common with one buyer at the Sinclair sale today...he thought, as I did watching on the computer for a few minutes, that he bought lot 6 for $3500...I was thinking the bull wouldn`t have been too bad at that price...imagine the buyers shock when they said, $35,000

That's some rough inflation.

What difference do you expect from the calves of the 1/4 GV bulls and the Charolais line bulls? About the same?

EddieM wrote:

Quote :

well, I had something in common with one buyer at the Sinclair sale today...he thought, as I did watching on the computer for a few minutes, that he bought lot 6 for $3500...I was thinking the bull wouldn`t have been too bad at that price...imagine the buyers shock when they said, $35,000

That's some rough inflation.

What difference do you expect from the calves of the 1/4 GV bulls and the Charolais line bulls? About the same?

color the biggest...these particular 3/4 an-1/4GV may be bigger framed than my chars will be...this years chars on ground really please me;

MKeeney wrote:

aww gee...a testimonial in my email...or maybe a critique...anyway, dead on IMUO...
Hey Mike,

I have raised cattle all my life. I went strictly registered Angus several years ago because the breed always seemed to do everything well. I began by buying and using what was "SUPPOSEDLY" the best Angus genetics as the American Angus Association, Semen companies, and the larger ranches would have you believe. It didn't take me many years to realize that these "SUPPOSEDLY" best genetics will bankrupt you quickly. Despite having proper nutrition and health programs the cows became either too fat or thin and DO NOT produce calves every year as they should. Luckily I came upon a nearby Angus breeder who breeds Angus the way that cattle should be bred; for fertility and money making in a real world situation. He doesn't chase the BIG BUSINESS BULL... that is promoted by the Angus industry today that leaves so many farmers taking yearly losses and barely surviving. The Angus Association seems to cater to the BIG MONEY players and doesn't seem to care about what truly makes up the majority of the cattle business by pushing genetics that will make a farmer money. Most everyday Angus breeders cannot have $5000 per head bull sales where one Angus "Breeder/Politician" pays some ridiculous, ungodly price for the top lot so that that seller can do the same for him when he has a sale.

I wonder what Ryan would have thought about the first Sinclair bull selling moving to $80,000 rather quickly in $5000 increments...is it some accepted rite of passage that the first bull get`s run to a silly price to get attention in future catalog footnotes etc...to keep the con game going? sure doesn`t speak very highly of the need for consistency or the acquisition of such by Sinclair...I would think consistency brings consistent prices as well as cattle, not one bringing $80,000, next one $4500...what was worth $75,000 extra?
I don`t accept these first first rites of con game selling anymore...cancel that 10 straw future order I might have made on a Sinclair bull some time in the next ten years...their loss

Quote :

I wonder what Ryan would have thought about the first Sinclair bull selling moving to $80,000 rather quickly in $5000 increments...is it some accepted rite of passage that the first bull get`s run to a silly price to get attention in future catalog footnotes etc...to keep the con game going? sure doesn`t speak very highly of the need for consistency or the acquisition of such by Sinclair...I would think consistency brings consistent prices as well as cattle, not one bringing $80,000, next one $4500...what was worth $75,000 extra?
I don`t accept these first first rites of con game selling anymore...cancel that 10 straw future order I might have made on a Sinclair bull some time in the next ten years...their loss

When the grandson sells good, it makes the ol' $250,000 grandma pictured in the catalog just beam with pride. I did wonder what you were doing watching the Sinclair sale. Maybe seeing what they need to fix so that you can recommend the best KA bull to them to fix their problems?

EddieM wrote:

Quote :

I wonder what Ryan would have thought about the first Sinclair bull selling moving to $80,000 rather quickly in $5000 increments...is it some accepted rite of passage that the first bull get`s run to a silly price to get attention in future catalog footnotes etc...to keep the con game going? sure doesn`t speak very highly of the need for consistency or the acquisition of such by Sinclair...I would think consistency brings consistent prices as well as cattle, not one bringing $80,000, next one $4500...what was worth $75,000 extra?
I don`t accept these first first rites of con game selling anymore...cancel that 10 straw future order I might have made on a Sinclair bull some time in the next ten years...their loss

When the grandson sells good, it makes the ol' $250,000 grandma pictured in the catalog just beam with pride. I did wonder what you were doing watching the Sinclair sale. Maybe seeing what they need to fix so that you can recommend the best KA bull to them to fix their problems?

lunch entertainment; nothing more...passed right by the Sinclair entrance at least twice in the last three years; did not even bother to turn in and look across the fence...the registered gamesmanship is the competition, not my genetic foundation...

went to spend a afternoon there once. they stood me up. ended up at LL. thank you Sinclair
never bought or thought much about LL then but he did plant a seed.

we`re running behind on our pictures since the rain and mud keeps messing up our washing, clipping , and manicuring all these bulls
but, got the first two pens pictured, and you can get some idea of their look at
http://www.keeneyangus.net/2011-Bull-Sale-pictures.html

more representative pics tonight of the other pens; plus heifer weights...

MKeeney wrote:

we`re running behind on our pictures since the rain and mud keeps messing up our washing, clipping , and manicuring all these bulls
but, got the first two pens pictured, and you can get some idea of their look at
http://www.keeneyangus.net/2011-Bull-Sale-pictures.html

more representative pics tonight of the other pens; plus heifer weights...

Would it be more useful to picture the dams of sale bulls on green grass and their sires as opposed to yearling bulls? I would think if you are "replacing" EPDs with relavant information, the picture becomes your prediction of what the bulls should accomplish; females just like his dam and bulls just like his sire.

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

we`re running behind on our pictures since the rain and mud keeps messing up our washing, clipping , and manicuring all these bulls
but, got the first two pens pictured, and you can get some idea of their look at
http://www.keeneyangus.net/2011-Bull-Sale-pictures.html

more representative pics tonight of the other pens; plus heifer weights...

Would it be more useful to picture the dams of sale bulls on green grass and their sires as opposed to yearling bulls? I would think if you are "replacing" EPDs with relavant information, the picture becomes your prediction of what the bulls should accomplish; females just like his dam and bulls just like his sire.

Or bulls like the sire of the dam and females like the dam of the sire?? MikeL

MKeeney wrote:

anyone wanting a sale sheet should email me at mwkeeney1@windstream.net




Welcome to the Keeney Angus 2011 Business as Usual Bull and Heifer Sale, 12:30 pm, April 2, 2011 at the farm, 5 miles West of Somerset, KY on HWY 80...phone number 606-305-4501Here’s how the sale works…The animals will not be run through an auction ring. Each bull or heifer will have a very reasonable, pre-set base price. Each prospective buyer should register upon arrival and receive a buyer’s number, then inspect the offering and make notes on any bulls he may be interested in bidding on. The sale will start promptly at 12:30 PM and begin with pen 1, and proceed to sell choice of pens until completion. Any lot not receiving the minimum bid will be passed and be available after the sale at the minimum price.Terms and conditions- the cattle sell under the standard terms and conditions as suggested by the American Angus Association. All bulls have been breeding soundness evaluated and are guaranteed to be breeders. They are not guaranteed against injury after you take possession.Special Representatives- Dr. John Johns, retired UK extension specialist; Keenan Turner, retired Pulaski Co. Agent Buyers unable to attend the sale- should contact us before sale time and may have a representative bid for them, or may bid personally via the sale day telephone, 606-305-4501 or 606-305-6020.
Delivery- 100{note change} mile delivery is included in the purchase price of the bulls; however, we will deduct $100 on any bull picked up sale day or soon thereafter. We will guarantee any out of state bull sales to not cost the buyer more than $200/head. Heifers can be delivered at a cost of $2.25/loaded mile. We will assist in helping combine loads; although all reasonable care will be taken by us, animals become the responsibility of the buyer after April 2.Liability- All persons attending the sale do so at their own risk.
A complimentary lunch will be served...come early.The numbers are our best estimate of what our cattle will do based on our experiences and accumulated data. Of these, calving ease is the most difficult to predict since over half of the contribution to calving ease will be by the cow or heifer our bull is bred to. Our recommendations are
1-Longhorn alternative; no observation 2-heifer use, but observation recommended 3-heifer and cow use, but heifer observation a must 4-cows only
the other scores for milk, udder quality, temperament, and hair coat...1-5 with 5 best
SC..ave, plus, large...
the sires
718 Reg: AAA 15964977
The sire of the 4 registered bulls in the offering; easy calving, slick haired, from an infallible 18 year old cow.
6309 ...This bull’s first daughters have calved here; moderate sized, good udders, no problems; his influence will be concentrated here...one of our most pleasing sires ever.
Felix 2...a ton son of Felix 6310 we sold as a yearling; brought back as a 4 year old; used one year before injury.
the 29`s...126, 26, 17...all sons of a Shoshone bull stemming from the 29 lineage...more frame, good calving ease shape,
superior udders, and we think improved fertility exists in the ancestry

How much of the numerical score for different traits are heritable? What do you expect for producers who use different management compared to you? Would you expect slick hair if they continuously graze fescue as compared to some level of rotational grazing?

Quote :

How much of the numerical score for different traits are heritable? What do you expect for producers who use different management compared to you? Would you expect slick hair if they continuously graze fescue as compared to some level of rotational grazing?

df, if you got answers to all three of these questions how many more bulls would you be willing to buy at the sale?

DF, type, being controlled by fewer genes, will be more repeatable than the things you school boys measure controlled by quantatative genes.....
Eddie, people with no cows, usually don`t need bulls...except the genetic rustler/hustler crowd..

MKeeney wrote:

lost three potential customers today because of no papers...
first had just three registered cows in 50 commercials; so couldn`t afford the $500 extra for a dunkum bull
second..wanted to know what info he would buy my heifers on with no registration papers..just my word? yelp
third just asked...can they be registered? NOPE...

maybe i just avoided three problems...

awww...frank honesty has value after all...hope springs eternal...from one of the callers I "insulted" with my forthright approach yesterday; I sent him an email and told him I was predicting we would become fast friends...reading below...we`re on our way

Mike:Bill Shakespeare wrote:"The Truth is a desolate plain that will sustain only the brave".I dropped out of the American Angus Assoc. because of the 1680 incident.I felt registering calves and paying the appropriate registration fees was like fueling a fire,with flames too intense to put out.The AAA with it's vague,artificial EPD's,that are not about the cattle but serve as a soap box on which breeders can stand and con the Angus Journal crowd(newby's mostly)into beleiving their's is special cattle...they are grifters who would steal the nickels off a dead man's eyes.The Angus cattle industry is manned "in general" by promoters who,if they did not promote cattle,would make a good living as top used car salesmen etc.They can talk a Coon out of a tree and if that's not bad enough,these boys have no qualms when it comes to the turning their heads before you buy a 600.00 calf for 5000.00.True it's the buyers fault for buying the calf in the first place,but it is also true the buyer has been conned into buying the calf by promotional illusions that are lies.Coming from folks who bill themselves as "good old country boys" and "salt of the USA earth type"the purchaser realizes,in a day or two after the sale,he's been hustled and the purchase ,now,is about as easy to swallow as a piece of chalk.The above is,justified ranting,and it is just the tip of the AAA iceberg.It is about Truth,or a lack of Truth,which in turn leads to doing the right thing or wrong thing,or gray area thing(gray meaning you know it's wrong,but everyone else is doing it.You cross a line and become a joiner-in'er,and you are not a better person for it ....Those were good pic's especially like the bottom bull...Larry A
ps:i could go on about angus cattle all day-forgive my lack of understanding when it comes to the dominant promoters who sale the Angus breed all over the USA.If we are naive enough to beleive their pretense,then we should get hold of naivety and put it away,then of course stay home sale day.

EddieM wrote:

Quote :

How much of the numerical score for different traits are heritable? What do you expect for producers who use different management compared to you? Would you expect slick hair if they continuously graze fescue as compared to some level of rotational grazing?

df, if you got answers to all three of these questions how many more bulls would you be willing to buy at the sale?

If the score is only useful as a one-time indicator of some other trait, I would say it is pretty worthless and not worth collecting or publishing. However, if the number is highly heritable, and a good indication of what I can expect, then it might have some value. While it is probably better than a one time count of flies, I don't see much value of talking about hair coat in the winter. I would not expect much variation, unless there was some Brahman influence, and would not be a concern of mine in the winter. Now if it was July and the cow or bull had not shed and had that brown, fuzzy hair, I would be a bit concerned. Of course, it would have to have a high heritability and a high correlation to the real trait of interest, which is fertility. If it does not, then it is a great promotional tool that misleads buyers into thinking there is some value that is not there.

Again, why not collect data on the trait of interest instead of some indicator trait?

MKeeney wrote:

DF, type, being controlled by fewer genes, will be more repeatable than the things you school boys measure controlled by quantatative genes.....
Eddie, people with no cows, usually don`t need bulls...except the genetic rustler/hustler crowd..

I remember as a kid my dad purchased a bull with Wye breeding (which was all the rage). Dad was pretty pumped about this new purchase. He bought the bull on conformation and pedigree. The EPDs were low but my dad was told that it had a lot to do with a closed herd and inbreeding. That bull sired one calf crop; the calves were so poor (but no dystocia!) in conformation and performance, he was quickly replaced. I am sure some people get along great with Wye cattle; my dad did not. Seems to me he got less than he paid for but got what was predicted.

So type should not be too tough to duplicate as it is controlled by fewer genes. Yet the feeder and packer look at their bottom line and say "don't buy those calves, they don't meet our specs". The cow/calf man says "those sure are some cute little thing", yet still maintains the same size cows as his neighbor but sells fewer pounds. Thank goodness for the slide.

Type is important and not to be discounted. But maybe there is more to cattle breeding, and profit, than conformation.

When every year the cattle get more consistent for the traits and type I want, I`ll keep measuring the traits I want however I want TO MEASURE THEM...when the real bottom line, the bank balance grows selling $1750 bulls, I`ll keep doing things my way instead of the school way...and when I`m replacing your buddy Radacovich bulls in His backdoor, I`ll keep doing things my way, and suggest you advise him...

I read on the corner where rcc was discussed, I have known steve a long time and bought several bulls from him. The bulls did not take me where I wanted to go, too much 6807, so began looking else where and found Keeney Angus and we are headed where I want to go, females that look like females, udders look to be improved, heifer calves are cycling faster, and the bulls have an attitude that is easy to live with as of today. Look forward to pictures of the bulls in the sale , can you give me a rough idea of how many dollars it will take.

tom

MKeeney wrote:

When every year the cattle get more consistent for the traits and type I want, I`ll keep measuring the traits I want however I want TO MEASURE THEM...when the real bottom line, the bank balance grows selling $1750 bulls, I`ll keep doing things my way instead of the school way...and when I`m replacing your buddy Radacovich bulls in His backdoor, I`ll keep doing things my way, and suggest you advise him...

I read on the corner where rcc was discussed, I have known steve a long time and bought several bulls from him. The bulls did not take me where I wanted to go, too much 6807, so began looking else where and found Keeney Angus and we are headed where I want to go, females that look like females, udders look to be improved, heifer calves are cycling faster, and the bulls have an attitude that is easy to live with as of today. Look forward to pictures of the bulls in the sale , can you give me a rough idea of how many dollars it will take.

tom

This is real bad; tom knew RCC for a long time and still did not know what the bulls would do. That is probably worse than you buying a bull from LL without knowing anything, really, then being dissappointed. Well at least you can claim ignorance..............

Just keep guessing those birthweights..........could there be a bigger waste of time?

Quote :

That is probably worse than you buying a bull from LL without knowing anything, really, then being dissappointed. Well at least you can claim ignorance..............

Just keep guessing those birthweights..........could there be a bigger waste of time?

[/quote] I`ve never been disappointed in any Shoshone bull`s but the first one...and that wasn`t the bulls fault; it was my fault for not knowing what the bull was bred to do...I thought he oughta do everything; that`s what I had learned they should do at the university...it took some doing to undo my learning...

well yes, there is a bigger waste of time than guessing birthweight ...guessing the birthweight, then sending it in to AAA converted into epds...
you`re right on the scores for udder, temperament, hair etc...there`s not enough difference in breeding value to matter, so next year, no more wasting paper with "data", no more scores; either score well or steer...slowly the objective is becoming reality, just as it has been at my mentors, it makes little difference which bull you pick in a pen...same result...
[quote]

Mike looking forward to your sale........Culled a frazier cow monday I bought from you as a heifer in 96 /97 ? she rasied 16 calves here including two sets of twins.....I can only imagine how much better she would have been with reg. papers and epd's

shilow angus wrote:

Mike looking forward to your sale........Culled a frazier cow monday I bought from you as a heifer in 96 /97 ? she rasied 16 calves here including two sets of twins.....I can only imagine how much better she would have been with reg. papers and epd's

Tom,
Be thinking about an index we can use to breed more cows like that old girl...I was kinda thinking about dividing the years you`ve made a living with cows into your bank balance...kind of a cow business IQ..look forward to seeing you, things at peace in the mountains?