Keeney Angus-Business as Usual Sale

Ave of top 28 bulls Shear Force
BW -.7 -5
WW 30 27
YW 54 49
Milk 1 14

I think it would be hard to characterize the top API bulls as high growth, which I think you would like to portray them.

Top 20% in both API and TI with .3 acc on STAY
BW = .2
WW = 36
YW = 68
Milk = 1.1

38 bulls

How did the heifers sell?

Bob H wrote:

I would agree with changing your terminal cross or heifer bulls because of weight. If your Maternal Line Bulls are to big I would think that the cows are to big also, The other thing that I think is that by not using Maternal bulls until they are worn out you are probaly lessening your selection process for longevity. ie bad hips,low libdo etc. We want the cows to live and breed to 20 years old but quit using the bulls when they are 5 or 6 seems to me we are allowing half of the genetic pool to slide. A. I. will allow any bull to be used as long as a tank of semen will last, I am not sure that a frozen cow has much value as a multiplier, seems like hamburger to me. Would like to have more discussion one these points thanks Bob

Just speculating here Bob but if we are selecting male replacements from a solid cow program with longevity built in - where the bull's only purpose is perpetuating his mothers type shouldn't that be enough to ensure longevity of the daughters? The fact that mature bulls can be a ton +, prone to fighting and the injuries these can cause makes it tough for them to last to the same age a cow does. I certainly like to see a bull last to 8-10 years old rather than 5 or 6 but is it realistic to expect them to last much beyond that with any regularity? If you start selecting for a bull type that is less prone to "bull breakdown problems" doesn't that risk skewing your other selection criterea? In a self contained breeding program based on creating repeatable maternal females bulls are pretty cheap to replace - just a matter of keeping a few more bulls, a few less steers and I don't see that as being all that costly.

Mark Day wrote:

Great to see you being rewarded for all of your hard work and risks taken along your journey. I know the acceptance of your thoughts and your product by the industry means more to you than the checks you will be depositing. From going through the sale pictures it really seems that you are hitting your intended target more frequently than my first visit about 15 years ago. Can't help but wonder how the heifers sold too?

Not a lot of heifer competition; though all sold...that is pretty much expected from a group of , what is that stinkbug phrase, "the good commercial men"...that sell when heifers are high, and keep when they`re cheap...
not many risk`s ever been taken here; most all of the risk are in the registered game...

df wrote:

Ave of top 28 bulls Shear Force
BW -.7 -5
WW 30 27
YW 54 49
Milk 1 14

I think it would be hard to characterize the top API bulls as high growth, which I think you would like to portray them.

I could care less about the Simmental API {super breed, do all things index best } index or any other index that measures averages..the fact that so many simmy breeders are using Angus bulls to sire their calves tells me more where the breed is than an index comparing simmy to simmy...

Grass-Farmer that is exactly what I am talking about if a bull were in nature he would have to do all of those things and be able to survive on the same feed. It was real interesting the other day we were watching on TV an older bull elk that appeared to be lame in the front leg a younger bull came and challenged him he seemed to be equal but the older bull was more cunning and whiped him easily at the same time another bull appeared it was more of a struggle but he went thru the pain and whipped him also then directly bred a cow. That was evident to me that we as humans would have culled the older bull but maybe his female offspring could calve easier by being able to take more pain. I know that we humans think that we can interfere with natural selection and have no effect but do not the laws of nature state that for every action there is a reaction. Just some thoughts Bob

Young Brave Spotted Dogg has returned to the land of his birth. The fires of revolution still burning in his mind, and now must complete the observation tower and warrior training facility, pictures will be forthcoming upon completion. Middle Aged, Brave HairlessCat, and fashionado extradordaire must re-study Western Culture 101, proper nomenclature for said piece would be wildrag. Young pappooses much pleased all pups not sold, old man may not be put in a home, just yet. Old Chief Fatnomore, provide much good nourishment for body and spirit, many thanks Old Chief.

Gregory Walker wrote:

Tom D wrote:

Gregory Walker wrote:

On the scene and the bulls look better than ever.... Their mothers look ok too.

We have an imbedded reporter. Gregory, can you give us an idea of the mood of the rebels? We have received unconfirmed reports of at least one dog being sold, what else can you tell us about the strength of the opposition?

The opposition was nowhere to be seen. The lack of data and and no weighing every 28 days was enough to rout them. I can plainly state that I witnessed 4 pups being sold. Mike fed the cult members before, during and after the sale. The mood of the rebels was triumphant. The cattle looked great. And so did Bootheel with a tasteful ensemble of Hat, bandanna and vest. My brother kept calling it a scarf, but it was definetly a bandanna.

What, no chaps? I believe that thing around his neck is either an ascot or a cravat.

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

Ave of top 28 bulls Shear Force
BW -.7 -5
WW 30 27
YW 54 49
Milk 1 14

I think it would be hard to characterize the top API bulls as high growth, which I think you would like to portray them.

I could care less about the Simmental API {super breed, do all things index best } index or any other index that measures averages..the fact that so many simmy breeders are using Angus bulls to sire their calves tells me more where the breed is than an index comparing simmy to simmy...

So does it matter which Angus bulls are being used on Simmental cows or is the average good enough?

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

patb wrote:

With the current price of beef those old salvage bulls are worth serious money. Why not cash them in and get some quality genetics?

hopefully, those old bulls were "quality" genetics to help make the new bulls sustain herd "quality" ...just looked at TN epd requirements as set by university "experts"...what a joke, an almost certain way to go backwards on cow herd profitability...but I bet they mirror that Simmy chart...

I bet they don't

tell me a couple of really profitable simmy bulls and we`ll see where they fit the tn guidelines...one group of university theorists and trend followers can`t be far different from another...

Don't ask for evidence if you don't want it

Quote :

Don't ask for evidence if you don't want it

df, you'll need to show me some evidence that somebody besides you is interested in this topic of great Simmentals on paper. Try the topic of nose hairs or something like that and mor folks might join in.

Sorry, I was giving the futuristic view. I did not know I had to limit the discussion to Angus.

df wrote:

Sorry, I was giving the futuristic view. I did not know I had to limit the discussion to Angus.

oh yes, university guys are always about the future...job security is priority one...everyone that ate grilled Berky sliced ham Saturday wanted to go back in time and repeat history....awww, but taste creates waste to an academic

Fellas, here in gods country we call the thing around your neck simply a scarf. At least thats what the cowboys call them couldn't tell you what the flat-hatters call them. For me it serves more of a functional purpose than a fashion one. I suppose you can call it whatever you like.

Ben

Bob H, some really good and interesting points. Only one thing, nature has a distinct advantage on us, she doesn't have to pay bills. I certainly agree that much can be learned from the study of nature. If we can paralell our programs as closlely to her as we can while still paying the bills I think it will be very satisfying. The biggest thing I think we can learn is that she never tolerates extremes. I'm guessing she doesn't need to study data either.


Ben

df wrote:

In 1992, Simmental breeders met to discuss the state of the breed. The result of this conference encouraged breeders to quickly discard the big, hard-doing, low marbling spotted cattle in favor of multi-trait selection (type and EPDs) of black, polled bulls that were acceptable for calving ease and marbling as well as moderate in milk, growth and frame. This focus on usable cattle greatly increased the percent of females that stayed in the herd. The increase in Stayability is critical to profit and one of the primary reasons for their breed improvement.

92 words

I hesitate to even comment on this Simmental discussion as it has little to do with Mike's sale and I have no idea exactly what DF and all the numbers are trying to tell me but the fact that this profit graph http://www.simmental.org/userimages/SM%20Profit.pdf coincided with the Simmental breeders move to crossbred cattle from Fullbloods does illustrate what I found here.

We got into beef in 1993 we ran Fullbloods on angus cows then Simmental started showing up with black polled calving ease purebreds... why would I mess with the Fullbloods when I can have it all with the purebreds I started to pay 3 to 4 times more for the crossbred Simmentals, with the used up profit which is illustrated so well in DF’s graph.

Most of the bulls I use interestingly enough are on one of DF’s list of bulls the Lucky’s , Fortune 500,Big sky, Shear Force and Dream On all of which just about go back to Circle S Leachman 600U.... After ten years of that I realized I just as well make the profit so I am back to running Fullbloods.... but with black polled Fullbloods showing up

So in a roundabout way I see that profit graph as being somewhat futuristic in the fact that it illustrates the profit the commercial guy can expect if more breeders closed down their herds and bred cattle all the while reserving the right to keep all the numbers they feel they need

DF What weight are the simmental cows when mature and how do their offspring grade after 100 days on feed.

Ben I think that nature is telling us how to pay our bills but because of academia and lack of observation we are missing some points.

Mike, it's none of my business but I'm curious, did anyone take you up for reg. papers? How did Joe's 123 bull sell?

Bob H wrote:

DF What weight are the simmental cows when mature and how do their offspring grade after 100 days on feed.

As you know it would vary across regions and actually from ranch to ranch. What is important, I think, is how they compared to other options. I can't tell you that SM are small, although some of the lower growth bulls would probably give you 1100 lb cows (3C Walley comes to mind). The best data on that topic probably comes from MARC or from the ASA database. The MARC data shows a slight advantage in mature weight compared to Angus, but I am not sure how significant it is.

I don't think there is much data on SM that have only been fed 100 days (probably not many breeds for that matter). The top SM bulls have the same level of marbling as the average Angus but certainly as a breed will not have as high as Angus.

Hilly wrote:

df wrote:

In 1992, Simmental breeders met to discuss the state of the breed. The result of this conference encouraged breeders to quickly discard the big, hard-doing, low marbling spotted cattle in favor of multi-trait selection (type and EPDs) of black, polled bulls that were acceptable for calving ease and marbling as well as moderate in milk, growth and frame. This focus on usable cattle greatly increased the percent of females that stayed in the herd. The increase in Stayability is critical to profit and one of the primary reasons for their breed improvement.

92 words

I hesitate to even comment on this Simmental discussion as it has little to do with Mike's sale and I have no idea exactly what DF and all the numbers are trying to tell me but the fact that this profit graph http://www.simmental.org/userimages/SM%20Profit.pdf coincided with the Simmental breeders move to crossbred cattle from Fullbloods does illustrate what I found here.

We got into beef in 1993 we ran Fullbloods on angus cows then Simmental started showing up with black polled calving ease purebreds... why would I mess with the Fullbloods when I can have it all with the purebreds I started to pay 3 to 4 times more for the crossbred Simmentals, with the used up profit which is illustrated so well in DF’s graph.

Most of the bulls I use interestingly enough are on one of DF’s list of bulls the Lucky’s , Fortune 500,Big sky, Shear Force and Dream On all of which just about go back to Circle S Leachman 600U.... After ten years of that I realized I just as well make the profit so I am back to running Fullbloods.... but with black polled Fullbloods showing up

So in a roundabout way I see that profit graph as being somewhat futuristic in the fact that it illustrates the profit the commercial guy can expect if more breeders closed down their herds and bred cattle all the while reserving the right to keep all the numbers they feel they need

I am not advocating using Simmental as much as I am discussing an alternative to the current selection in most breeds. Indexes are pretty useful if the correct weightings of the EPDs can be accomplished. These would be more like the swine industry in many respects.

It normally takes a while for the beef industry to get in trouble compared to the swine industry but then it normally takes longer to correct the problem as well.

Quote :

By taking a few liberties and making a few more
assumptions (e.g., annually retaining the top half of
your heifers based in index values), I came up with the
calculations displayed in Table 3.
As you can see, we would almost double our current
progress by using bulls in the top 5% and nearly triple it
with 1% bulls! The $44/exposure projected increase over
this time span with top 1% API sires translates into an
additional return of $6,600/sire for a commercial producer
who exposed their bull to 30 cows over 5 years
($44 x 30 cows x 5 years). I would hardly be going out
on a limb in saying that an across-the-board impact to
our customers’ bottom line of that magnitude would
likely set the industry on fire and make our members
the most successful in the business.

This is a quote from the first linked article. This progress is based on replacing 25% of the cow herd each year (1/2 of heifer crop would roughly be 1/4th). $44 X30 is an annual increase of $1,320. Raising 7 or 8 replacement heifers each year would bump up the cost of operation to around, what, about $1000 each or $7,000 to $8,000 annually? And in the 5th year you are replacing a group of 4 year old cows. I think this would be hard pressed to be a profitable operation.

Eddie
Backwards and happily while still looking for profit and fescue resistance. Not near a bridge. No tribal ties. Kinda all alone.

P. S. df, I will muster up the futurist view to look at the second article some time later.

Pull it together Eddie... The future is waiting.

Quote :

Pull it together Eddie... The future is waiting.

You can't rush progress.