Reflections from LL ©

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

Will wrote:: Hilly, not being sarcastic at all. Sorry to everyone if I came off that way. I need to find time to read the thread. At this point I have not closed my herd to outside genetics, but I am having one heck of a time finding new herd bulls. That is the only reason I stated I wish I had semen on some of my old bulls. I have bred the type I think I and my customers need from the beginning. Stacked it. No fads , no chasing EPD's, no chasing frame., no bull of the month and no AI. My type on top of my type. Really boring to some people.

and now you`ve run out of heterosis{that was over-valued anyway}, and you are going to have to breed your own stuff into truer lines...and you are starting to feel a little wheeezy, and next thing you know, you be grabbing the trash can or rushing to the toilet...finding a new bull will delay puking, but the permanent cure will be to go see your commercial customers good looking calves by your bulls...due to your selection, and the heterosis being expressed in their herds...that`s assuming you have customers left, after producing some pukey bulls that they will not buy until they understand better the cause and their intended use...we`re here to help you Will {sound familiar? Smile

} we only need your time and effort, and your giving that in excellent fashion right now... Smile

So how much heterosis is in Will's herd? Does it matter if he "runs" out of heterosis if it's overvalued anyway? If he creates his own breed that works better than the two parent breeds, is that bad? Or is it only bad if he PROMOTES something that may not be true? What is true?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

what would make a new 2 breed combination work better? to do two things half as well as the original two breeds?

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:: what would make a new 2 breed combination work better? to do two things half as well as the original two breeds?

However Will and his customers want to define it. I don't know if they work better than the two parents but Will and his customers must think so.

The real point of my post had to do with retain heterosis. I see comments that he is running out of heterosis but others that say his program has too much. What is the truth?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:: what would make a new 2 breed combination work better? to do two things half as well as the original two breeds?

However Will and his customers want to define it. I don't know if they work better than the two parents but Will and his customers must think so.

The real point of my post had to do with retain heterosis. I see comments that he is running out of heterosis but others that say his program has too much. What is the truth?

in the context those statements were made, both were true statements...

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

Will wrote:: I'm getting it, or should I say I got it a from the beginning of my ranching career. The only difference between me and Tru-Line is you believe in doing it with one breed and i believe in creating a new breed from two breeds and doing it. I think MK is on the right track using a half blood waygu. He wants and will get more consistent marbling and get some heterosis thrown in for free. The cross will beat the Gardiner trash all to hell in one cross. Might need a purebred Simmy to make three quarter bloods for customers that need a little more Simmy for their enviroment. LL would more than accept you as the Caddy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for a person that has a program and sticks to it and you have. Thanks for your post.

I have no idea how long was laying there, but I was jolted back to consciousness with this image of Knievil Will mounted on a one of his heterosis turbo charged hybrid bulls leaping across Revelation Canyon from the village of Gone Fishing clear across to the town of Got It From The Beginning in a single bound. Spectacular, glad you landed safely Will. Smile

Also good to here that in spite of the closure of the Red Lodge Candy store and in spite of the futility of your search for a new herd bull this year you are confident you can make it another year. Smile

DB...dam Candy stores!

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

Larry Leonhardt wrote:: WOW Dylan, what a great way to seize and preserve one precious moment in time !!!!!!

“If the day and the night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs, is more elastic, more starry, more immortal- that is your success. All nature is your congratulation, and you have cause momentarily to bless yourself.

If things were as easy as they are simple....... the rats nest of the human mind.

DB......beginning
Will wrote:
LL, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I have heard of your program in the past but I know very little about it. Do you inbreed or linebreed now?

DB responded:

Will, I get your desire for an immediate understanding of Tru Line, I felt the same impatience initially. Though, after reading and thinking and mulling and stewing on just the basic concepts for over a year now, from what I have read on this site, I feel I am starting to get a grasp. Conceptually it is simple, but for me it was not easy. The challenge was that it is a complete 360 in terms of the way I thought about and approached breeding my cattle since the early 80's. It is a different way of thinking. You are obviously a committed cattleman and as such when you take the time to read and think about the True Line principles I expect you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answer. There is a wide range of thinking in cattle breeder circles. Renewable is one good example of a concept I never really gave much consideration to from the stand point of how to, other than just wishing for the right mating. Everyone would like to be able to renew their good results consistently. But few can churn out the same type of functional predictable results on a relatively consistent basis. You may protest and say you do and yet you say "I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth". For years I have wanted to replicate my good results also. To be able to renew those results is a part of what True Line addresses. How does one stack the deck in favor of replicating the functional individual or individuals. The recipe. Humans typically get bored of a really good dish and eventually they want some variety, until the day comes they can't have the good lod dish any more, then it is imagined as even better then it actually was. Asssuming your wish was sincere, spending some time reading will likely prove interesting for you.

MK wrote:

“A truly good book teaches me better than to read it. I must soon lay it down, and commence living on its hint. What I began by reading, I must finish by acting.”
― Henry David Thoreau

Following many valid comments and questions from a commercial viewpoint, LCP wrote:

Bob, my goals are to enjoy ranching and make enough at it to raise a family. More specifically, I want to have a cow herd with outstanding maternal qualities and be able to add value to the calves after weaning through retained ownership. The retained ownership isn't quite as important to me as the cow herd. I can't imagine doing anything else besides ranching. I really enjoy working with animals...except cows that are poor mothers. Nothing else shortens my fuse more than a cow that won't claim her calf. I have one in the barn right now that is working on my last nerve.Are those the kind of goals you were asking about? Or are there more specific goals in regards to genetics I need to have? I am not really set in my ways. Change does not bother me, as long as it brings about improvement or progress of some kind. I am pretty willing to try new things as long as they make sense.
Will wrote:

MK, another great post. Got a good laugh out of your last sentence ("Will is an engaging; sometimes, enraging fellow "). I think you are a masterbreeder in the purebred world. Got a ways to go yet in the hybrid world but we are makng some pretty good progress. How's the golf game? One of my goals is to play a round of golf with you and pick your brain. You are a thinker and I really enjoy people that think and are able to defend their program. A couple days ago we had 92 degrees, yesterday it started to rain a very cold rain with snowflakes this morning. Inch total and we needed it! Glad I have hybrids they take these weather changes better. Seems I read somewhere linebred inbreed cattle are not as thrifty. Might of been on Advantage.

Hilly wrote:

I always have to remind myself that efficiency of the Tru-Line system will come in degrees, we all have to start somewhere. I made a comfortable living with the cattle before I met Larry and Mike so I'm not arguing that it can only be done the Tru-Line way but I do believe this is a more efficient and grounded way

There have also been many other interesting comments on KC lately. The rats nest of several human minds churning together to develop recipes seems to be getting more complicated. as we enter the world of details in regards to the TruLine concept. For simplification, we are all aware that any successful RECIPE consists of stabile ingredients. To answer your question Will, I am not necessarily inbreeding or linebreeding now, they are merely tools I use to stabilize and refine the ingredients. The 360 turnaround DB aludes to is going from an era of marketing haphazardly mixed ingredients.as parent or production stock to one of marketing stabilized ingredients for more predictable products.

Not only does DB have a great appreciation for the beauty in all of nature, I now owe him my eternal gratitude for his preceding post which so thoroughly explained the need for "pure" ingredients....and thank you Hilly for your post of greater understanding.....putting the concept in a nutshell, any improvement in the efficiency of beef production does come in degrees starting from somewhere....a time consuming patient process. Hilly had his production system all figured out long before he ever met LL or MK. He searched us out in his quest to find more reliable special purpose parent stock. I am reminded of when he told us his Canadian neighbors were going broke chasin' higher and higher producing cattle. That's a highly contagious disease that spread worldwide, where few have an immunity to it, especially adapted just across the Canadian border into ND

It took me far too long before I came to believe that the genuine basic foundational purpose of a "purebred breed" was to stabilize a kind in order to improve the prepotent renewal of that kind. Over time the industry discovered that crossing kinds temporarily increased production.....we call it the benefits of hybrid vigor or foolishly associate it with an effect of heterosis when in fact it is more likely just the complimentarity or detrimental combination of two diverse genotypes. So yes Will, I understand why you are glad to have hybrids "to take these weather changes better" - we have become dependent on hybrid vigor. However, we all should know by now that it must be sustained with continued variation lest we regress to the true genetic level over time. "Purebred breeding" requires built-in vigor......an essential economic cost that Will seems to be unwilling to invest his time and efforts in, nor do very few of the rest of us want to spend the time and perserverance required for long term improvement.

MK told Bob, "we`re separated by a fine line in this discussion" somewhat in defense of Will's perspective. No, no, no, Mike, there is a coarse line that is significantly different between traditional production and more efficient:"TruLine" production systems. In today's beef world, to my regret I cannot see any significant genetic differences between registered and non-registered cattle whether they are called purebreds or crossedupbred hybrids, composites or mongrels. To my knowledge, I am not aware of any breed that is trying to stabilize their primary characters....most use the top to bring up the bottom. So Mike, how do you just add a pinch of Wagyu to get calving ease and marbling without also getting any of their other characters?.

Perhaps many are at a disadvantage who read the advantage website since they have likely not seen how genuine purebreds can breed up from what they are while they are quite familiar with how crossedupbreds normally breed down from what they are. I personally don't need any further experiments to see what Fl's, F2's, F'3's or more do as parents and have also seen innumerable examples of the miracles of that F1 consistency subsequently deteriorate. From all the hocus pocus we read and hear about, DB is right-on when he said "you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answers" to all the questions LCP has set forth in his KC posts.

So when Dylan says "if things were as easy as they are simple", we can quickly understand why the traditional industry does what it does. It is not about genetics, but all about our own economics and our lack of time. From a commercial standpoint, traditional individuals are uniquie unto themselves. Will chose a couple of Simme bulls from the breed to make his hybrids and so I had a good laugh when he told MK "you really made Sim-Angus bulls without knowing one Simmy from another by name?" .So Will, will those be the only Simme bulls you'll ever use?? In summary as a breeder of maternal parent stock, I am having a awful hard time understanding how hybrid vigor is considered free.....oh, maybe I forgot we have across breed individual parent EPD's and we no longer care about consistant renewal as we relapse back into the habits of our old "search and destroy" missions.

Trying to maintain a sense of humor in this very responsible business of breeding parent stock, I became a little distraught when MK said he is "going to make a cut and move on this discussion soon to Another new guy to combine Will`s thoughts, catalogs , responses etc to keep LL`s Reflections thread more condensed"....we're all not skimmers.....and all this while I have been borrowing comments from other topics for subjective material to use on reflections by LL .....geez Mike, don'tcha remember you can't teach an old dog new tricks......my reflections ARE for "new guys", ole guys are already set in their ways.......just imagine if we could persuade 60 yr. old Hybrid Will to accept the validity of the TruLine concept, we will have moved a mountain. I think I need to volunteer to be you and Will's golfing caddy.....or maybe Bob H would be a more qualified person for that job.

LL - jovial while in the vicinity of earthquakes moving mountains if Mike will just push the right buttons rather than succumb to Will's will and marketing skill

Mike and Larry, compliments on the sunset photo go to my daughter Jocelyn. I find it spectacular also. Smile

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Thu May 03, 2012 9:57 am

df wrote:: So how much heterosis is in Will's herd? Does it matter if he "runs" out of heterosis if it's overvalued anyway? If he creates his own breed that works better than the two parent breeds, is that bad? Or is it only bad if he PROMOTES something that may not be true? What is true?

Creating F1s year after year isn't creating his own breed, it's taking two breeds and crossbreeding them. If he starts selecting towards a type with an end goal from an F1 base he would be starting to create a breed. Give it 50 or 60 years of development and then we can judge if the breed works better than the foundational parent breeds. That's where my breed came from.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

How much hybrid vigor is present in offspring under "mainstream" Angus breeding, in offspring the result of mating SM to AN and how much in offspring when mating the F1 SMxAN to females that are F1 SMxAN?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:: How much hybrid vigor is present in offspring under "mainstream" Angus breeding, in offspring the result of mating SM to AN and how much in offspring when mating the F1 SMxAN to females that are F1 SMxAN?

some, more, and less

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

D F I tjhink that they reduce hybred vigor from a production point and leave the commercial with alot of unpredicablity in the offspring. If they would breed truelines for the commercial producer to use so the he can then harness the hybred production then it is a win. Thus you get more from less and the people who sell beef by the pound or quality grade recieve the bonus. The people who sell cattle by the head or seedstock producer can charge by the head. Thus you have a win win and the world goes round and round. Bob H

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Bob H wrote:: D F I tjhink that they reduce hybred vigor from a production point and leave the commercial with alot of unpredicablity in the offspring. If they would breed truelines for the commercial producer to use so the he can then harness the hybred production then it is a win. Thus you get more from less and the people who sell beef by the pound or quality grade recieve the bonus. The people who sell cattle by the head or seedstock producer can charge by the head. Thus you have a win win and the world goes round and round. Bob H

Thanks Bob. I am just trying to get my head around the comparison of different systems and how "different" are they. For example, one system might be a two-breed rotation of Angus and Hereford. How much does it matter to the commercial producer that the Angus and Hereford are significantly inbred? I don't know what breeders think is significant but that should probably be discussed as far too many bulls are sold with inbreeding coefficients that are relatively low but the breeder makes a lot of claims about uniformity, IMO.

A second system might be using only one breed to make replacements, such as Angus, and using a terminal breed. This system does not have any maternal heterosis (is this an issue to the commercial producer?) but certainly the calves have a uniform breed composition. Are the calves a lot more uniform compared to an Angus x Charolais rotation, for example?

When a commercial producer uses SimAngus bulls on his SimAngus cows, how much less uniform are the calves? Does this matter in a large herd where the calves can be sorted into smaller, uniform groups (but still big enough to fill the sale ring)? Again, there is the issue of maternal heterosis.

I don't think it is fair to compare good straightbred cattle to bad crossbreeding. We have all seen crossbreeding done badly but we have also seen straightbreeding with poor results. Are the good results in straightbreeding being compared to bad results crossbreeding?

I think there are several issues that need to be quantified. For example, how important is maternal heterosis, how will a commercial producer get replacements, and how easy is the system to manage? In additiion, how does that breeding progam affect marketing? I would think a commercial producer needs to answer these questions, at a minimum, to know what is right for him.

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

After 30+ years of technologically advanced parallel selection, I believe breed difference mitigation has further necessitated specified lines. I see no purpose for breeds if they are selected to do the same thing and criss crossed willy nilly along the way to do it all. Breeds are unrecognizable in TRADITIONAL terms AND no longer practical for TRADITIONAL uses.

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

D F I will cover the 2 breed rotation in my second comment.

1 What we have found is that by using Shoshone genetics as our base in this program, with the multiple sire concept to retain vigor that our cowherd is very fertile and productive.

2 About uniformity in a rotation that you talk about the calff crop goes from straight Angus to straight Charolais and all of the crosses in between. What we found was that by using Shoshone femalesl and Charolais bulls we had a much more uniform calf crop that has about 15% out liers or 7.5 to big and 7.5% smaller on the bell curve with about 85% in the middle of the bell curve that you are trying to hit.

3 20 years ago I thought that I could use crossbreds on crossbreds or Industry purebreds but could not stop having the same luck. That was we would sort the heifer calves in the fall and 25%were too big 25% were too little or undesirable and 50% were okay but would grow out to be ununiform. I thought that this was normal until I met Larry. This has since stopped and we can keep about 85% of the Shoshone on Shoshsone heifers with what appears to be 85% of those making it to 10 year old cows.

4 What I feel we have now is a set of highly productive cows that weigh from 1150 to 1300 lbs depending upon age and time of year, That we can use any bull upon to produce and end product for any consumer whether it be for seestock,meat or high end eating.

5 The simplest system that we found to produce crossbred calves and retain enough females was to put the Shoshone bulls in for 14 days then pull them and put in the terminal bulls for 2 heat cycles. We partner with 2 other ranches so the Shoshone bulls are used 3 different times. This gave us enough females to replace the fall out and a uniform set of feeder cattle to feed.

6 If our goal is produce seedstock we put the Shoshone boys with the Shoshone girls and get the little ones. With the short cow numbers in the US this is what we are doing this year.

Bob H from the land of the trucks are here to unload.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Bob H,

That is quite remarkable! If I understand you correctly, about 85% of the calving 2-yr-olds are still in the herd until age 10. I suppose you lose ~10% that don't get bred back to calve at 3 and another ~5% that don't get bred back to calve at 4?

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Kent Powell wrote:: After 30+ years of technologically advanced parallel selection, I believe breed difference mitigation has further necessitated specified lines. I see no purpose for breeds if they are selected to do the same thing and criss crossed willy nilly along the way to do it all. Breeds are unrecognizable in TRADITIONAL terms AND no longer practical for TRADITIONAL uses.

3 sentences that describe the sensibility of Will`s new breed; OR ANY NEW BREED...Will is in absentee; working on his high tech video`s, but unable to log in to KC...since I can log in as Will, maybe I can argue his case Smile

...well, anyone can, because there`s nothing to argue about Smile

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

I see DV`s old master marketer buddy is posting at advantage...maybe we`ll get him over here to aid Will in the crossbred use..

http://www.nicholsfarms.biz/nfcompositelines.pdf

What is a Nichols Composite Bull?
Nichols’ Composites are the result of crossing two
or more pure lines in specific crosses to maximize
the best traits of the grandparent lines.
A composite bull’s heterois (cross bred vigor) is
transmitted to his offspring. Plus, his calves are
more uniform in type, performance, and carcass
characteristics than back crossing purebreds.
Virtually all poultry, swine, and grain genetics are
the result of systematic composite breeding.

pure lines? heterosis transferred? oh really now? where`s our red flag emoticon?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Oh now I got it figured out. I was trying to re-register. Silly me. Have way to many things going on. Sorry MK for making you babysit me. Videoed the bulls yesterday for the sale. Customer and son that bought their first bulls from us last year showed up to looked at the bulls. Son helped. Both were blown away at the dispositions. They need a couple bulls. Really like their first calves out of our bulls. Went really well. I am excited about a video sale. Only way to go. Neighbors always help bring bulls into the ring. This way they can relax and just buy bulls. Also have two phone bids so far and this way I can man the phones instead of helping bring bulls into the ring. MK, some, more, less! Is the less still more than the sum? Gotta run, so up up and away on my maternal heterosis balloon! Oh D Bigg's I almost forgot. Do you think Traitmaker was soft sided? Never did answer that over on Advantage. I

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Will wrote:: Oh now I got it figured out. I was trying to re-register. Silly me. Have way to many things going on. Sorry MK for making you babysit me. Videoed the bulls yesterday for the sale. Customer and son that bought their first bulls from us last year showed up to looked at the bulls. Son helped. Both were blown away at the dispositions. They need a couple bulls. Really like their first calves out of our bulls. Went really well. I am excited about a video sale. Only way to go. Neighbors always help bring bulls into the ring. This way they can relax and just buy bulls. Also have two phone bids so far and this way I can man the phones instead of helping bring bulls into the ring. MK, some, more, less! Is the less still more than the sum? Gotta run, so up up and away on my maternal heterosis balloon! Oh D Bigg's I almost forgot. Do you think Traitmaker was soft sided? Never did answer that over on Advantage. I

a man that figures his own epds and can`t log on to KC had me puzzled! put up the video link; I at least want to copy your sale methodology some day...or is this just for those attending and not on the internet?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

If True-line is the only way to go why is it such a secret? My methodology is simple. Let the bulls do the talking, so yes it is best to attend the sale. MK some, more, less, is the less still more than the sum?

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Will wrote:: If True-line is the only way to go why is it such a secret? My methodology is simple. Let the bulls do the talking, so yes it is best to attend the sale. MK some, more, less, is the less still more than the sum?

Don`t make straw man arguments Will...no one said it`s the only way to go, just a better way to go...the reason it isn`t practiced, is because it`s just the opposite of being a secret, it`s too well known in that it exposes true genetic levels, and a lot of people can`t stand truth..some get dizzy; others even puke when their cattle genetics are exposed to truth...

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Just the throw aways in a purebred setting make me puke. I make my money by not having many throwaways. That is what makes being a hybrid breeder fun. No breeding Mommy to Sonny boy and no breeding Daddy to his daughters! Now that thought makes me puke!

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Will wrote:: Just the throw aways in a purebred setting make me puke. I make my money by not having many throwaways. That is what makes being a hybrid breeder fun. No breeding Mommy to Sonny boy and no breeding Daddy to his daughters! Now that thought makes me puke!

excellent commercial application of someone else`s genetic work you have there Will; the breeders have done your puking for you...

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

Will wrote:: Just the throw aways in a purebred setting make me puke. I make my money by not having many throwaways. That is what makes being a hybrid breeder fun. No breeding Mommy to Sonny boy and no breeding Daddy to his daughters! Now that thought makes me puke!

Conservation genetics

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

True-line is not a secert it was the only way to breed cattle before mass transit,Ai, etc. The problem with it as I see it is that it is too slow for academia and you have to own cattle and study them not just throw up some numbers, hire some help, and go to the big shows and brag. Now you breed whatever to whatever, advertise, go on the internet and sell your wares and let the commercial man see if what you have done is succesful. If it is a falure then you can always get another commercial cattleman after all it only been 5 years of his life.

Bob H from the land of the commercial cattleman that does not want to waste 5 more years of his life.

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

Will wrote:: Oh now I got it figured out. I was trying to re-register. Silly me. Have way to many things going on. Sorry MK for making you babysit me. Videoed the bulls yesterday for the sale. Customer and son that bought their first bulls from us last year showed up to looked at the bulls. Son helped. Both were blown away at the dispositions. They need a couple bulls. Really like their first calves out of our bulls. Went really well. I am excited about a video sale. Only way to go. Neighbors always help bring bulls into the ring. This way they can relax and just buy bulls. Also have two phone bids so far and this way I can man the phones instead of helping bring bulls into the ring. MK, some, more, less! Is the less still more than the sum? Gotta run, so up up and away on my maternal heterosis balloon! Oh D Bigg's I almost forgot. Do you think Traitmaker was soft sided? Never did answer that over on Advantage. I

Will, what thread and what page was his photo on? I need to look at the photo, I am not 100% sure which bull it was again. If I recall correctly he was in a pen wearing his winter coat. He didn't strike me as really tight wound but not as soft either.

Hope your sale goes well, there have been video sales up here and most seem successful.