Reflections from LL ©

jonken wrote:

You asked me to stir the pot and now we are rocking and rolling.


Just like cooking a big pot of Chili all day long, stirring the pot now and then is needed to blend the spices throughout, not to mention it does release a temporary burst of pleasant aroma. However, a lot of patience and self-discipline between stirs is needed if the spices are to do their work beneath the lid. Slowly, without our continual interference, the product creates itself, one that rarely fails to meet our expectations at the end of a long day.

I never worried about needing to over stir unless I had the fire to hot and worried about it getting burned.

Kendra

as always, words of perception
Will is like a live fish getting fried in the grease...very jumpy

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

in general; measured only by common sense and experience of owning some Charolais cows

Might this be described as "get the good ones up and the bad ones down"? sort of like livestock judging where it is more important not to make big mistakes than to always get a 50 on the class?

or who cares if a birth weight is 88 , 90, or 92?

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

in general; measured only by common sense and experience of owning some Charolais cows

Might this be described as "get the good ones up and the bad ones down"? sort of like livestock judging where it is more important not to make big mistakes than to always get a 50 on the class?

or who cares if a birth weight is 88 , 90, or 92?

Agreed.

I would like to ask you fellows who are promoting the use of crossbred bulls if you understand the margins in the cow bussines over a 10 year period. In my opinion they are not very great and probably getting smaller all the time. With that in mind are you willing to bail out the young struggling rancher you have promoted this to when it dosen't work. Or will you tell him it's his fault because of his management.

When I left Larry Leonhardts place 14 years ago he told me something that I will never forget, If you like what you see then you might try some of my bulls and if you don't then you had better go some where else because you will end up with the same using my cattle. Well 14 years later we have and understand today better than ever what it means to be sustainabe, like my daughter states you put the Shoshone Boys with the Shoshone girls and they renew what you have and good is plenty good enough on Howard Ranches.

Bob Howard

Shoshones have lurked around here in some degree from 1/2`s to the tighest of inbreds for 30 years...there are no miracles; and some of the inbreds made me puke until I learned to laugh at them...if you had a herd of the puking kind, you`d soon be broke...and it`s pretty hard to go broke in the cattle business because of your genetics... I wish that wasn`t true, because then it would be possible to make a million because of the genetics...some have made millions in the registered business, but it was due to the con, not the genetics...
The basic principles LL has applied and set forth here can and should be applied to all cattle breeding; though each application might be for different purposes with different outcomes...the degree to which you apply these principles will depend on your ability, your cattle`s ability, and how well you can afford it...so said Sewell Wright, long ago...like all genetic principles, as true today as ever...constant outcrossing to even constant crossbreeding shows a failure in all three qualities....
but yes, Bob, I believe in crossbreed bulls, just as I believe in the merit of crossbreed cows...the difference is in the meaning of breed versus bred....

Bob H, hope the rodeo went well. Have several young ranchers in the system. Calves top the market and cows really good. Five Rivers feedlot want hybrids and Power Genetics only want Sim-Angus. Our customers are very well positioned. Not concerned in the least. Been doing it for 28 years. What about the bull raisers that do not help their customers capitalize on heterosis mainly maternal heterosis. Crossbred cow is worth 25% more in her life time. How can anyone leave that on the table, especially with an in-bred? Does running on BLM land help you return a better profit?

MK, glad to hear you believe in crossbreed bulls. Now try and make one that is not fire and ice.

Will wrote:

Bob H, hope the rodeo went well. Have several young ranchers in the system. Calves top the market and cows really good. Five Rivers feedlot want hybrids and Power Genetics only want Sim-Angus. Our customers are very well positioned. Not concerned in the least. Been doing it for 28 years. What about the bull raisers that do not help their customers capitalize on heterosis mainly maternal heterosis. Crossbred cow is worth 25% more in her life time. How can anyone leave that on the table, especially with an in-bred? Does running on BLM land help you return a better profit?

I'm going to take a stab at this to see how much I grasp of the Tru-Line concept, so if I get something wrong please someone correct me.

Will, I am coming at this from a commercial man's perspective. Five Rivers and Power Genetics want hybrids...well, I want to be the one making the hybrid to sell to them. If I am buying the hybrid from my seedstock supplier, I am losing out on some of the heterosis, am I not? It is widely accepted that maximum heterosis occurs in the F1, so as a commercial producer, would I not want to make the F1 myself? I would be interested to know if feedlots are more interested in buying F-1's or F-later's. I have a hunch the F-1's would be their preference.

The crossbred cow being worth 25% more in her life...compared to what? The "average" straight bred cow, we assume. The premise behind creating pure lines of maternal genetics is to create superior straight bred cows to maximize the heterosis when creating the F1 while maintaining superior maternal function. I speculate that superior, linebred maternal genetics rival the value of the average crossbred cow in terms of longevity (which is where the added value comes from, correct?), yet still allow for maximum heterosis and consistency in her offspring. Even a superior crossbred cow, although highly functional as a female, gives up some of the potential heterosis and consistency in her progeny as a result of her own hybridization (maybe not heterosis in a 3 way terminal cross though?) Most commercial producers, myself included, have gravitated toward crossbred females because of the abundance of average to below-average maternal genetics in the mainstream. Crossing them seemed to be the easiest way to get a better female. The problem is the inconsistency in creating that crossbred cow, and the resulting inconsistency in the offspring. Without pure parent lines, there can be no consistency.

To be clear, this is not from my experience, rather what I have read on this site from other's experiences. This was just an essay question in my self-prescribed homework assignment. I've been on this site about as long as you have Will, and as you know I have a bunch of Balancer bulls, so this is still in theory for me. I'm just trying to understand it better to see how I can make better cows and make better feeder calves with greater efficiency.

Will wrote:

MK, glad to hear you believe in crossbreed bulls. Now try and make one that is not fire and ice.

no one has any breeds made yet worthy of crossing...breeding fire and ice and making different worthiness of breeding animals rather than mixing cold water to cold water to get a breeding animal is a bogus idea I got over some time ago...but here`s you a tip...you can get LL to agree with you on that one
will, why does a simmental x angus of both the same genetic trait levels create heterosis? his papers?

Will you keep hinting at because we run on BLM it makes our cost lower. If we did not have to buy the land and permits maybe. What I would like to see is you bring your crossbreed cows and come to the desert and stay for 20 years. It would be a good test to what you are saying. Their are very few Exotic cross cows left in our part of the world. 20 years ago I would think that the percentage was maybe as high as 50% but when the don't breed back you or them have to go.

On another note one of my best customers is J and F cattle feeding formely 5 rivers. The most important thing that I can tell is they want to buy cattle that make money on the day of purchase. They feed around 800 or 900 hundred thousand at a time and like to keep their lots and packing house busy. If they are better feeder cattle priced 1.00 hundred more they will pass if they can buy more volume cheaper. What we have realy good luck sending them to feed is a big green steer that weighs 875 and has a compenstory gain of 75 lbs on delivery day.

What part of the world are you from .

Bob H

Grassfarmer wrote:

Will wrote:

Grassfarmer, don't have time to explain. Already posted a bunch of posts on Advantage and I think I won that discussion when I posted a picture of Traitmaker. Soft sided is a maternal trait in my opinion. I bet the top maternal lines in Tru-Line are soft sided. Might be wrong though. My herdbulls are not hard sided. Soft also bounces off things better than hard.

Always in a hurry, no time to explain, bulls to peddle....or is it bullshit to peddle to keep the circus wheel turning? Maybe you should take Jon's suggestion to put your comments in another location - maybe over on 4.9Y would be a better fit for you? Along with the horn tooters, know-it-alls, pedlars and merchandisers.

Grassfarmer here is Wills take on soft sided.

D Biggs, this is the way I look at muscle in my cowherd. You can not over do the muscle as long as you use herdbulls with muscle that are still soft sided. Takes a certain type of bull to be softside. Loose hided, but not to loose, with a long deep thick hindquarter. Have yet to see a soft apple butted bull. An example of a hard sided Purebred Angus bull would be Retail Product. Not saying he is but to me he looks part Gelbvieh. More than likely got that look from 1680. A bull like Retail Product would never work in my program. To hard sided with a bit of an apple butt. Edit added a few things.

This is the photo of the Traitmaker Gelbvieh bull Will posted as a pictoral example of soft sided,



DB......Helping Will with his case, since he is so short of time so busy trying not to get burnt.

LCP, welcome and thanks for the post. I have to let the bulls do the talking. I need a break in the weather and then get some group pictures.

D Bigg's thanks. Not worried about getting burned, in fact pretty soon I'm going to light the grill and have lunch. Thanks again!

D Biggs, heck bring the whole thread over. Let's have some fun.

Quote :

Will you keep hinting at because we run on BLM ...

A meaningless distraction? Who knows? Hybrid thinking?

Dylan,
that`s very helpful and I won`t accept another picture of a bull until it is made soft-sided what contributes genetically to soft sides? thick hide? fat under the hide? flexible ribs?
can a soft-sided bull go down a more narrow alley?

Bob H, why not buy more land and no permits, if permits are so expensive. No BLM land in my area and glad there is not.

D Biggs, already said Traitmaker was soft sided.

LCP wrote:

I'm going to take a stab at this to see how much I grasp of the Tru-Line concept, so if I get something wrong please someone correct me.

Will, I am coming at this from a commercial man's perspective. Five Rivers and Power Genetics want hybrids...well, I want to be the one making the hybrid to sell to them. If I am buying the hybrid from my seedstock supplier, I am losing out on some of the heterosis, am I not? It is widely accepted that maximum heterosis occurs in the F1, so as a commercial producer, would I not want to make the F1 myself? I would be interested to know if feedlots are more interested in buying F-1's or F-later's. I have a hunch the F-1's would be their preference.

The crossbred cow being worth 25% more in her life...compared to what? The "average" straight bred cow, we assume. The premise behind creating pure lines of maternal genetics is to create superior straight bred cows to maximize the heterosis when creating the F1 while maintaining superior maternal function. I speculate that superior, linebred maternal genetics rival the value of the average crossbred cow in terms of longevity (which is where the added value comes from, correct?), yet still allow for maximum heterosis and consistency in her offspring. Even a superior crossbred cow, although highly functional as a female, gives up some of the potential heterosis and consistency in her progeny as a result of her own hybridization (maybe not heterosis in a 3 way terminal cross though?) Most commercial producers, myself included, have gravitated toward crossbred females because of the abundance of average to below-average maternal genetics in the mainstream. Crossing them seemed to be the easiest way to get a better female. The problem is the inconsistency in creating that crossbred cow, and the resulting inconsistency in the offspring. Without pure parent lines, there can be no consistency.

To be clear, this is not from my experience, rather what I have read on this site from other's experiences. This was just an essay question in my self-prescribed homework assignment. I've been on this site about as long as you have Will, and as you know I have a bunch of Balancer bulls, so this is still in theory for me. I'm just trying to understand it better to see how I can make better cows and make better feeder calves with greater efficiency.

Good stab, well said LCP!

Will wrote:

D Bigg's thanks. Not worried about getting burned, in fact pretty soon I'm going to light the grill and have lunch. Thanks again!

hmmm.... seem more like a "open up a can of chili, dump it in a bowl, and microwave on high" kind of guy!
Kendra

MK, I am beginning to understand why it took you so long to get out of kindergarden! Wow!!!! raised a herd bull for Kit Pharo! Did he have enough grow? That is....That is...That is...I don't even know what that is!!

Nope, I'm a griller.

Will wrote:

D Biggs, already said Traitmaker was soft sided.

Will I gathered that much a couple of months ago.

I am starting to question your reading skills, do you need glasses, or maybe newer glasses?

Or maybe you are spending to much close time with the microwave.

Did you post it? If you did sorry I missed it. Traitmaker was so soft and had a back and pair of pants you could die for. Soft cattle are maternal cattle that marble. I totally believe that!

Thanks Dylan, sadly there is still no explanation of what soft sided is. We could post bull pictures all day and say they were "soft sided" or "not soft sided" but until there is a definition of the condition and hopefully some indication of it's economic benefit we would be wasting time. And now there is apparently another condition called a "soft apple butted bull" ....... you must be kidding or do you just make this stuff up as you go along? In an effort to enlighten myself I googled a picture of the bull called Retail Product and came up with this:

http://www.bovine-elite.com/angusblk/GarRetailProduct_lg.jpg

And you say he looks like a Gelbvieh it's even in the name - "yellow cattle". If you want to check out what more Gelbvieh look like here is a breeders website with pictures.
http://highfieldgelbviehs1909.blogspot.ca/

In the vicinity of wondering whether it takes a "soft apple butted bull" or a "soft sided bull" to march to the top of DV's Horse Butte and march back down again. Or indeed whether Dennis's Butte is higher than the pile of BS Will has spouted since coming to KC.


Edit: And it gets worse - the bull had a "pair of pants you could die for" - who are you Carson off Queer Eye For The Straight Guy?