Reflections from LL ©

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, thanks I was going to ask you to do that. Sorry I had the wrong thread.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Bob H wrote:: Mike, it appears to me that you are using heterosis as a tool to sell seedstock that has alot of varability. Why not sell the commercial producer the true seedstock and let him get all of the heterosis. Seedstock procucers sell their cattle by the head we commercial producers sell by the pound. If you do not sell us predictable genes then it all goes back to 25 50 25. If this were not true the kill in the U S would be flooded with choice carcasses but instead have gotten worse the last 20 years. In all the cattle that I have handled in the last 20 years it is very obvious to me that if the crossbreeding is left up to the Commercial producer he becomes more sustainable if he buys crossed up seedstock he soon is looking for different cattle or a different line of work. If the seedstock producers would all have differnent trueline genetics and tell the commercial producer the truth we could make any end product that a consumer would want.

Will, 85% is about all that nature will allow to be alike. We use Shoshone angus for our maternal line which we started with about 14 years ago. When we want more maternal cattle we staight breed back to Shoshone. When we want terminal feeder cattle we crossbreed with Charlaios. My daughter and I have several different enterpizes which all contain cattle. Our Shoshsone Herd is at about 500 and we like what we see. We have boughten several difffernt herds of cattle in the last 3 years which none of them compare. We also handle allot feeder cattle. What is always astonishing when we run them with our cattle they never keep up whether it is with the staightbred heifers as cows or our halfblood terminal crosses.

On a different note we bred our heifers to Akaushi bulls last year and about 8 to 10% had some difficulty calving. They calves appear to be more than a Wagye for a type. But with our strung out operation we are going back to Wagye. Bob H from the land of cattle that are weighed on scales.

Was this level of dystocia more or less compared to using Angus bulls?

It sounds like it was not what you expected but wondering if it is any different than using Angus.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: MK, thanks I was going to ask you to do that. Sorry I had the wrong thread.

not a problem; it`s the posters place to start the big wheel of thoughts rolling; my job is just to oil it Smile

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Dylan Biggs wrote:

Will wrote:: Dylan, mind explaing what Tru-Line means to you? Seems to me it is a mindset or peace of mind where the cattle take care of theirselves and you go fishing just as soon as the first calf is born. What about the cow that has twins all tangled up or the cow with a calf with the foot down or head back? I have never found that to be genetic. What am I missing? Or am I not missing anything?

Willl, open your mind, you need to readjust your sights. I am Willing to try again, seemingly more Willing then you are to attempt to understand anything I or anyone else have said before on this topic. But I feel you are sincere and as long as Willl is Willing to accept that I am not capable of a Vulcan mind meld and at some point, Willl, you Will have to get over your unexplained reluctance to invest some time reading to gain your own understanding of the topic. At any rate this is as much for my own practice in articulating my thoughts as it is an attempt to help you understand because in the end your sights are your sights and no one can give you an answer or draw conclusions for you, you are responsible for aquiring your own understanding.

Top Chefs use top ingredients. They know that individual high quality spices can taste unpleasant on there own at the very least, but in the right amounts with a complimentary combination they meld to produce an awesome eating experience. Without a consistent grower/supplier of high quality spices the Chef can not renew or replicate high quality dishes on a consistent basis. The job of the Chef is combination. Combination of poor quality ingredients makes the job way harder. Breeders of parent stock are ingredient suppliers for the commercial man (Chef) to produce the end product. Tru-line as far as I understand it, is a label for a conceptual breeding system that is focused on using complimentary lines of parent (ingredient) stock that commercial producers can rely on to yield consistent quality end product. The ingredients on there own can appear rather plain after isolation and concentration which in the end is irrelavent. What is relavent is the result of a complimentary combination. There are blended spices and if the blend is consistent and renewable it can work as an ingredient also but the blender then relies on the producer of the base stock to be of consistent high quality. If the blenders supply is not reliable then the blender may have to take on the task of producing the base ingredients himself, a complication of logistics and processes that may not be worth while. So at some point for the commercial cow calf enterprise to breed a consistent high quality feeder calf he relies on the parent stock breeder to supply consistent high quality seedstock (ingredients) or parent stock. Continuous renewal or replication of functional maternal stock is facilitated by a closed population to reduce genetic variability or heterozygosity thereby improving the probability of predictable consistent results. It is going to require choosing a functional type one likes and breeding like to like so the likely hood of producing what one likes is more likely. Or in other words the likely hood of consistent regeneration of what one likes is only more likely with reduced genetic variety. Tru-line in my interpretation means breeding a supply of consistent functional parent stock genetics for combination in commercial herds to facilitate the consistent production of high quality end result feeder cattle.

DB

This is good stuff; this has been a good exchange of ideas and practice for everyone involved in the Tru-Line effort explaining it ...but since I`m working in Will`s defense here; trying to better learn the other side`s perspective...here goes...
Dylan, mom`s cherry pie has a cup of this, and a pinch of that...can I add a pinch of Waygu without using and creating a cross Waygu because a full cupful of Wagyu is too much...or do I go through the number stack and find an Angus that most imitates a Wagyu?
question for df; which bull will have the tighter birthweight variation...a progeny proven calving ease Angus bull ...or an Angus x Wagyu cross bull selected from the middle of the variation..?

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

DF it appears about the same.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Bob H wrote:: DF it appears about the same.

Bob,
how much variation in bw is there in the Wagyu bulls calves out of Angus heifers?
my needs in less Wagyu, and more Angus is negated with your guys premuim for your Wagyu calves...here, I would be selling in a commodity market, and a 1/2 Wagyu would be docked...I think a 1/4 sells without dock...

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

Mike there was some difference but not alot. My question to you is why do you need more marbling in your angus cattle? Do you harvest alot for meat and do you have a nich for prime? Bob H

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Bob H wrote:: Mike there was some difference but not alot. My question to you is why do you need more marbling in your angus cattle? Do you harvest alot for meat and do you have a nich for prime? Bob H

looking for the sure shot, big margin of safety calving ease animals along the lines of DV`s use of Longhorns...with enough phenotype to match Angus steers...don`t tell me a 5 star from farao

; I want a match for my Angus steers...wanting too much perhaps Smile

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

I think that it would be hard to have an f1 with allot of predicability. Why not Identify a truline Angus sire for the heifers that would calve easy. My neighbor used 2 last year on allot of heifers without much trouble. Once you have him Identified use him for 10 years. With him and 2 more bulls you would have this problem solved. Just some toughts. Bob h

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

Larry have you ever seen certain bulls that indivivualy have had smaller offspring ?

Posts : 131 Join date : 2011-08-10

WOW Dylan, what a great way to seize and preserve one precious moment in time !!!!!!

Reflections from LL © - Page 8 DSC_0009

“If the day and the night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs, is more elastic, more starry, more immortal- that is your success. All nature is your congratulation, and you have cause momentarily to bless yourself.

If things were as easy as they are simple....... the rats nest of the human mind.

DB......beginning
Will wrote:
LL, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I have heard of your program in the past but I know very little about it. Do you inbreed or linebreed now?

DB responded:

Will, I get your desire for an immediate understanding of Tru Line, I felt the same impatience initially. Though, after reading and thinking and mulling and stewing on just the basic concepts for over a year now, from what I have read on this site, I feel I am starting to get a grasp. Conceptually it is simple, but for me it was not easy. The challenge was that it is a complete 360 in terms of the way I thought about and approached breeding my cattle since the early 80's. It is a different way of thinking. You are obviously a committed cattleman and as such when you take the time to read and think about the True Line principles I expect you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answer. There is a wide range of thinking in cattle breeder circles. Renewable is one good example of a concept I never really gave much consideration to from the stand point of how to, other than just wishing for the right mating. Everyone would like to be able to renew their good results consistently. But few can churn out the same type of functional predictable results on a relatively consistent basis. You may protest and say you do and yet you say "I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth". For years I have wanted to replicate my good results also. To be able to renew those results is a part of what True Line addresses. How does one stack the deck in favor of replicating the functional individual or individuals. The recipe. Humans typically get bored of a really good dish and eventually they want some variety, until the day comes they can't have the good lod dish any more, then it is imagined as even better then it actually was. Asssuming your wish was sincere, spending some time reading will likely prove interesting for you.

MK wrote:

“A truly good book teaches me better than to read it. I must soon lay it down, and commence living on its hint. What I began by reading, I must finish by acting.”
― Henry David Thoreau

Following many valid comments and questions from a commercial viewpoint, LCP wrote:

Bob, my goals are to enjoy ranching and make enough at it to raise a family. More specifically, I want to have a cow herd with outstanding maternal qualities and be able to add value to the calves after weaning through retained ownership. The retained ownership isn't quite as important to me as the cow herd. I can't imagine doing anything else besides ranching. I really enjoy working with animals...except cows that are poor mothers. Nothing else shortens my fuse more than a cow that won't claim her calf. I have one in the barn right now that is working on my last nerve.Are those the kind of goals you were asking about? Or are there more specific goals in regards to genetics I need to have? I am not really set in my ways. Change does not bother me, as long as it brings about improvement or progress of some kind. I am pretty willing to try new things as long as they make sense.
Will wrote:

MK, another great post. Got a good laugh out of your last sentence ("Will is an engaging; sometimes, enraging fellow "). I think you are a masterbreeder in the purebred world. Got a ways to go yet in the hybrid world but we are makng some pretty good progress. How's the golf game? One of my goals is to play a round of golf with you and pick your brain. You are a thinker and I really enjoy people that think and are able to defend their program. A couple days ago we had 92 degrees, yesterday it started to rain a very cold rain with snowflakes this morning. Inch total and we needed it! Glad I have hybrids they take these weather changes better. Seems I read somewhere linebred inbreed cattle are not as thrifty. Might of been on Advantage.

Hilly wrote:

I always have to remind myself that efficiency of the Tru-Line system will come in degrees, we all have to start somewhere. I made a comfortable living with the cattle before I met Larry and Mike so I'm not arguing that it can only be done the Tru-Line way but I do believe this is a more efficient and grounded way

There have also been many other interesting comments on KC lately. The rats nest of several human minds churning together to develop recipes seems to be getting more complicated. as we enter the world of details in regards to the TruLine concept. For simplification, we are all aware that any successful RECIPE consists of stabile ingredients. To answer your question Will, I am not necessarily inbreeding or linebreeding now, they are merely tools I use to stabilize and refine the ingredients. The 360 turnaround DB aludes to is going from an era of marketing haphazardly mixed ingredients.as parent or production stock to one of marketing stabilized ingredients for more predictable products.

Not only does DB have a great appreciation for the beauty in all of nature, I now owe him my eternal gratitude for his preceding post which so thoroughly explained the need for "pure" ingredients....and thank you Hilly for your post of greater understanding.....putting the concept in a nutshell, any improvement in the efficiency of beef production does come in degrees starting from somewhere....a time consuming patient process. Hilly had his production system all figured out long before he ever met LL or MK. He searched us out in his quest to find more reliable special purpose parent stock. I am reminded of when he told us his Canadian neighbors were going broke chasin' higher and higher producing cattle. That's a highly contagious disease that spread worldwide, where few have an immunity to it, especially adapted just across the Canadian border into ND Smile

It took me far too long before I came to believe that the genuine basic foundational purpose of a "purebred breed" was to stabilize a kind in order to improve the prepotent renewal of that kind. Over time the industry discovered that crossing kinds temporarily increased production.....we call it the benefits of hybrid vigor or foolishly associate it with an effect of heterosis when in fact it is more likely just the complimentarity or detrimental combination of two diverse genotypes. So yes Will, I understand why you are glad to have hybrids "to take these weather changes better" - we have become dependent on hybrid vigor. However, we all should know by now that it must be sustained with continued variation lest we regress to the true genetic level over time. "Purebred breeding" requires built-in vigor......an essential economic cost that Will seems to be unwilling to invest his time and efforts in, nor do very few of the rest of us want to spend the time and perserverance required for long term improvement.

MK told Bob, "we`re separated by a fine line in this discussion" somewhat in defense of Will's perspective. No, no, no, Mike, there is a coarse line that is significantly different between traditional production and more efficient:"TruLine" production systems. In today's beef world, to my regret I cannot see any significant genetic differences between registered and non-registered cattle whether they are called purebreds or crossedupbred hybrids, composites or mongrels. To my knowledge, I am not aware of any breed that is trying to stabilize their primary characters....most use the top to bring up the bottom. So Mike, how do you just add a pinch of Wagyu to get calving ease and marbling without also getting any of their other characters?. Smile

Perhaps many are at a disadvantage who read the advantage website since they have likely not seen how genuine purebreds can breed up from what they are while they are quite familiar with how crossedupbreds normally breed down from what they are. I personally don't need any further experiments to see what Fl's, F2's, F'3's or more do as parents and have also seen innumerable examples of the miracles of that F1 consistency subsequently deteriorate. From all the hocus pocus we read and hear about, DB is right-on when he said "you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answers" to all the questions LCP has set forth in his KC posts.

So when Dylan says "if things were as easy as they are simple", we can quickly understand why the traditional industry does what it does. It is not about genetics, but all about our own economics and our lack of time. From a commercial standpoint, traditional individuals are uniquie unto themselves. Will chose a couple of Simme bulls from the breed to make his hybrids and so I had a good laugh when he told MK "you really made Sim-Angus bulls without knowing one Simmy from another by name?" .So Will, will those be the only Simme bulls you'll ever use?? In summary as a breeder of maternal parent stock, I am having a awful hard time understanding how hybrid vigor is considered free.....oh, maybe I forgot we have across breed individual parent EPD's and we no longer care about consistant renewal as we relapse back into the habits of our old "search and destroy" missions. Smile

Trying to maintain a sense of humor in this very responsible business of breeding parent stock, I became a little distraught when MK said he is "going to make a cut and move on this discussion soon to Another new guy to combine Will`s thoughts, catalogs , responses etc to keep LL`s Reflections thread more condensed"....we're all not skimmers.....and all this while I have been borrowing comments from other topics for subjective material to use on reflections by LL .....geez Mike, don'tcha remember you can't teach an old dog new tricks......my reflections ARE for "new guys", ole guys are already set in their ways.......just imagine if we could persuade 60 yr. old Hybrid Will to accept the validity of the TruLine concept, we will have moved a mountain. I think I need to volunteer to be you and Will's golfing caddy.....or maybe Bob H would be a more qualified person for that job. Smile

LL - jovial while in the vicinity of earthquakes moving mountains if Mike will just push the right buttons rather than succumb to Will's will and marketing skill Rolling Eyes

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

I'm getting it, or should I say I got it a from the beginning of my ranching career. The only difference between me and Tru-Line is you believe in doing it with one breed and i believe in creating a new breed from two breeds and doing it. I think MK is on the right track using a half blood waygu. He wants and will get more consistent marbling and get some heterosis thrown in for free. The cross will beat the Gardiner trash all to hell in one cross. Might need a purebred Simmy to make three quarter bloods for customers that need a little more Simmy for their enviroment. LL would more than accept you as the Caddy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for a person that has a program and sticks to it and you have. Thanks for your post.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

Dylan Biggs wrote:

Will wrote:: Dylan, mind explaing what Tru-Line means to you? Seems to me it is a mindset or peace of mind where the cattle take care of theirselves and you go fishing just as soon as the first calf is born. What about the cow that has twins all tangled up or the cow with a calf with the foot down or head back? I have never found that to be genetic. What am I missing? Or am I not missing anything?

Willl, open your mind, you need to readjust your sights. I am Willing to try again, seemingly more Willing then you are to attempt to understand anything I or anyone else have said before on this topic. But I feel you are sincere and as long as Willl is Willing to accept that I am not capable of a Vulcan mind meld and at some point, Willl, you Will have to get over your unexplained reluctance to invest some time reading to gain your own understanding of the topic. At any rate this is as much for my own practice in articulating my thoughts as it is an attempt to help you understand because in the end your sights are your sights and no one can give you an answer or draw conclusions for you, you are responsible for aquiring your own understanding.

Top Chefs use top ingredients. They know that individual high quality spices can taste unpleasant on there own at the very least, but in the right amounts with a complimentary combination they meld to produce an awesome eating experience. Without a consistent grower/supplier of high quality spices the Chef can not renew or replicate high quality dishes on a consistent basis. The job of the Chef is combination. Combination of poor quality ingredients makes the job way harder. Breeders of parent stock are ingredient suppliers for the commercial man (Chef) to produce the end product. Tru-line as far as I understand it, is a label for a conceptual breeding system that is focused on using complimentary lines of parent (ingredient) stock that commercial producers can rely on to yield consistent quality end product. The ingredients on there own can appear rather plain after isolation and concentration which in the end is irrelavent. What is relavent is the result of a complimentary combination. There are blended spices and if the blend is consistent and renewable it can work as an ingredient also but the blender then relies on the producer of the base stock to be of consistent high quality. If the blenders supply is not reliable then the blender may have to take on the task of producing the base ingredients himself, a complication of logistics and processes that may not be worth while. So at some point for the commercial cow calf enterprise to breed a consistent high quality feeder calf he relies on the parent stock breeder to supply consistent high quality seedstock (ingredients) or parent stock. Continuous renewal or replication of functional maternal stock is facilitated by a closed population to reduce genetic variability or heterozygosity thereby improving the probability of predictable consistent results. It is going to require choosing a functional type one likes and breeding like to like so the likely hood of producing what one likes is more likely. Or in other words the likely hood of consistent regeneration of what one likes is only more likely with reduced genetic variety. Tru-line in my interpretation means breeding a supply of consistent functional parent stock genetics for combination in commercial herds to facilitate the consistent production of high quality end result feeder cattle.

DB

This is good stuff; this has been a good exchange of ideas and practice for everyone involved in the Tru-Line effort explaining it ...but since I`m working in Will`s defense here; trying to better learn the other side`s perspective...here goes...
Dylan, mom`s cherry pie has a cup of this, and a pinch of that...can I add a pinch of Waygu without using and creating a cross Waygu because a full cupful of Wagyu is too much...or do I go through the number stack and find an Angus that most imitates a Wagyu?
question for df; which bull will have the tighter birthweight variation...a progeny proven calving ease Angus bull ...or an Angus x Wagyu cross bull selected from the middle of the variation..?

I can't tell you how tight the variation is by knowing the accuracy of the EPD. In general, you don't see any correlation. The EPD is the mean of lots of observations while the accuracy is based on the amount of information you were able to use to predict that mean.

I assume somebody has looked at highly inbred cattle to see if there is less genetic variance in BW and thus, somewhat quicker gains in accuracy but I don't remember it. How much tighter is the phenotypic variation in BW of calves of a highly inbred bull compared to the average Angus bull? Is BW the trait of interest or do you perfer dystocia or maybe even better, survivability to weaning?

Presumably the F1 bull would have more variation compared to the purebred but an F2 or F3 may have no more variation compared to the purebred. I would be a bigger concern if this was an Angus x Charolais from the standpoint of dystocia compared to the Angus x Wagyu. The Angus x Wagyu may have somewhat less dystocia compared to the Angus, which is really where I would be personally interested.

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:28 am

Will wrote:: I'm getting it, or should I say I got it a from the beginning of my ranching career. The only difference between me and Tru-Line is you believe in doing it with one breed and i believe in creating a new breed from two breeds and doing it. I think MK is on the right track using a half blood waygu. He wants and will get more consistent marbling and get some heterosis thrown in for free. The cross will beat the Gardiner trash all to hell in one cross. Might need a purebred Simmy to make three quarter bloods for customers that need a little more Simmy for their enviroment. LL would more than accept you as the Caddy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for a person that has a program and sticks to it and you have. Thanks for your post.

It’s hard in this format of communication to tell if someone, especially a newer member is being sarcastic or not, but Will your last post has left me speechless; fingers still seem to move a little Smile

LL wrote:: “It took me far too long before I came to believe that the genuine basic foundational purpose of a "purebred breed" was to stabilize a kind in order to improve the prepotent renewal of that kind.

Over time the industry discovered that crossing kinds temporarily increased production.....we call it the benefits of hybrid vigor or foolishly associate it with an effect of heterosis when in fact it is more likely just the complimentarity or detrimental combination of two diverse genotypes.

So yes Will, I understand why you are glad to have hybrids "to take these weather changes better" - we have become dependent on hybrid vigor.

However, we all should know by now that it must be sustained with continued variation lest we regress to the true genetic level over time.”

I’m not sure how we are explaining Tru-Line in a way that makes it sound like one strain can do it all best (super), but it is not the first time this interpretation has been brought up.
Will, if you are starting a new super breed I assume that you have closed your gene pool from outside genetics, are you saying that within this closed pool you have enough variation to maintain three breeds two vital and one only super on the backs of the other two.

LL wrote:: “In summary as a breeder of maternal parent stock, I am having a awful hard time understanding how hybrid vigor is considered free..”

This is also not the first time it has been implied that heterosis is free, with this misconception of basic principals the trend to mix things up will continue and only after well shaken and stirred will the true cost of heterosis addiction be realized by the addicts.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Hilly, not being sarcastic at all. Sorry to everyone if I came off that way. I need to find time to read the thread. At this point I have not closed my herd to outside genetics, but I am having one heck of a time finding new herd bulls. That is the only reason I stated I wish I had semen on some of my old bulls. I have bred the type I think I and my customers need from the beginning. Stacked it. No fads , no chasing EPD's, no chasing frame., no bull of the month and no AI. My type on top of my type. Really boring to some people.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: Hilly, not being sarcastic at all. Sorry to everyone if I came off that way. I need to find time to read the thread. At this point I have not closed my herd to outside genetics, but I am having one heck of a time finding new herd bulls. That is the only reason I stated I wish I had semen on some of my old bulls. I have bred the type I think I and my customers need from the beginning. Stacked it. No fads , no chasing EPD's, no chasing frame., no bull of the month and no AI. My type on top of my type. Really boring to some people.

and now you`ve run out of heterosis{that was over-valued anyway}, and you are going to have to breed your own stuff into truer lines...and you are starting to feel a little wheeezy, and next thing you know, you be grabbing the trash can or rushing to the toilet...finding a new bull will delay puking, but the permanent cure will be to go see your commercial customers good looking calves by your bulls...due to your selection, and the heterosis being expressed in their herds...that`s assuming you have customers left, after producing some pukey bulls that they will not buy until they understand better the cause and their intended use...we`re here to help you Will {sound familiar? Smile

} we only need your time and effort, and your giving that in excellent fashion right now... Smile

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, gotta laugh, but sometimes I wonder if max heterosis is not over rated. Is Max heterosis much better than half heterosis? The system works I have plenty of proof of that. Do not need a new herdbull this year, never found one last year either but I can make it another year. Thought Sure Bet was the answer but maybe not. Of course I'm sure you are wondering who Sure Bet is!

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: MK, gotta laugh, but sometimes I wonder if max heterosis is not over rated. Is Max heterosis much better than half heterosis? The system works I have plenty of proof of that. Do not need a new herdbull this year, never found one last year either but I can make it another year. Thought Sure Bet was the answer but maybe not. Of course I'm sure you are wondering who Sure Bet is!

heterosis compared to predictability is vastly over rated in a "breeding" animal...

Posts : 131 Join date : 2011-08-10

Our advances from the Wright Bros to Space Shuttles in my lifetime dictate that sooner or later all our journeys become outdated and are relegated to the museums of history for posterity. Man envisioned space flight long before it happened.....any progressive advances are envisioned before they happen....always happening by circumstance. Cars get double the gas mileage of 50 years ago with more horsepower, climate control, sun roofs and directional maps on the dash to take us anywhere we want to go. Tractors are guided invisibly from the sky and the spectacular universe is plotted by colors for us to visualize on a computer screen - whether it is all worth it or not. Despite any resistance, circumstances will also relegate today's traditional cattle breeding habits to the museums of history for posterity.

In the interests of advancing the efficiency of beef production, thank you an over-valued million for your post Hilly - first you lost your goldy locks, sacrificed an ear and now with your tongue stuck in your cheek rendering you speechless, I'm glad your fingers are still working. Smile

No one is irreplaceable and I thoroughly enjoy participating in these discussions on KC, but then I pay the price for neglecting my day to day duties. Just what are my duties beyond providing a basic livelihood for my family with more and more insatiable wants ? I should be out planting corn but its been cold with icy winds changing from highs in the 80's a few days ago to recent high's in the low 30's. There are some things we just can't change.

For now, that expensive SUPER HYBRID corn seed is likely better off still in the bag. Hybridization is commonly used to increase production..... we even have hybrid cars, but they are expensive and their maintenance and durability remains questionable. There are always debates over ascertaining values, it's worthiness.... $300 seed to produce $6.00 HYBRID corn could equate to an average value of HYBRID bulls and cows being worth the same price per pound as averaged finished hybrid slaughter steers and heifers.....I question why they need to be valued or worth any more.

The price of progress is never cheap.....producing seed with all the scientific research and development costs built-in to cover all the breeders failures to achieve some success, selling semen out of virtually non-existant genuine purer bulls is about like selling pure corn seed one kernel at a time. I often question the affordability of our advanced technology. Economically, I don't know whether I am gaining or losing while increasing production but I do know the pressures and risk have increased dramatically with our demands for higher expectations and standards of living.

I don't like paying $300 dollars a bag for seed, $250 an acre for beet seed & tech fees, $1000 a ton for fertilizer, over $4.00 for diesel, exhorbitant machinery and maintenance costs, rising property and sales taxes, the vagaries of the weather, the unpredictability of the cattle and cattle markets, slick salesman, getting old ......and most of all the risk of wasting money on speculative, over-valued high-priced hybrid bulls. I don't mind paying income taxes, at least it's an indicator that I must've made some money from my work. And some years we lose money so I wonder if it is worth the continueous struggle and why in the sam hell I am a farmer.

Well, Paul Harvey said on the eighth day, God made farmers to take care of what He created, to have dominion over all creatures. So, I must be one of those privileged doomed with an unpreventable inherent affection for that duty. My neighbor struggling on a poor farm once sincerely told me he believes that if he does a good job with his farm in this godforsaken area, when he goes to Heaven God will give him a very good farm (like in IA or KY)....smiling, I told him if I have to farm in Heaven, I'm seriously considering being a Jihad suicide bomber in order to spend eternity pitting cherries.

But one day walking down my lonely road less traveled, I realized if it is in Heaven as it is on earth, then here we are in heaven still battling the devil the same as God ... that blowhards and bull shitters were still provided to serve fools while Angels help the needy. Surely caretakers were gifted with the brains to know the difference between what we can change and what we cannot. As caretakers then, we're assigned the duty to help those who cannot help themselves.

I've noticed by nature, most farmers are independent creatures often captivated by a generic marketplace buying retail and selling wholesale. They will search out ways to free themselves, isn't that right Kent Powell ! Caretakers know that things must get worse before they can get better, that extravagant high prices cure high prices, that feasts are followed by famine, all intermixed in our lives where heaven and hell are in one dimension.....and so we've learned that we must make hay while the sun shines for without rain there would be no hay.

So during the dawn of another new progressive era in beef production among the positives and negatives, I've learned that inbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....outbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....hybridization is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it......EPD are not bad, they are the only way we can measure a hybrid's performance.....maintaining ancestral records is not bad, it is our mixed up overglorification of them.....contructive criticism is not bad, it is our personal vindictive jealousy. Variation is not bad, it is a miracle of joyful and wonderful assortment available for us to coordinate. I can become like a kid or an adult overwhelmed in the Red Lodge Candy Store trying to decide among the many barrels of different candy which kind I'd like the most.....ending up filling a bag full up mixed up assortments to taste each with their own unique and distinct flavor. How can heaven possibly be better than that, ultimately finding those that we prefer over others.....I like black licorice, my wife can't stand it.

Excited with all that I saw right before my eyes, in 1983 I decided to open up a TruLine Candy Store but no one wanted to make the candy.....not I said the registered people, not I said the composite people to the little man and they laughed and played their games searching for the plastic prizes in their cracker jack boxes.... no factory, no product, the TruLine store remained empty. Being a caretaker of the needy, like it or not, to fulfill my duty I needed to build a factory.starting somewhere before the sky starts falling. Since there is no time in eternity, I don't need to live as long as Methuselah, Noah's ancestor. The"reigns" since Bakewell have recycled over and over again.for the last 100 years of days and nights. And lo and behold, the rains have brought forth a renewed freshness for new grass to grow improving the efficiency of beef production one step at a time.

So while old factories who wrap their products in alluring deceptive packages are beginning to shut down, what a grand opportunity to build a new modern one where the candy in the TruLine store will each be wrapped in clear cellophane, affordable in barrel volume for the needy...... it is the destiny of our duty to rid the devils of deception from our heavenly midst.......................

LL - excited to be in the vicinity of caretakers building new candy factories manned by leprechauns busy as beavers to supply the TruLine Store while DV and his band of experienced KC soldiers guard the entrance to keep it free of devil infiltrators while I go back out and plant some H Y B R I D corn for silage...... not for me but for my cattle in order to be a better caretaker Smile

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Remindful of bull sale catalog introductions, I must say that this is your best post ever Mr. Leonhardt...one small note of correction, there is no Red Lodge Candy Store in Red Lodge...instead there is

The Montana Candy Emporium

Reflections from LL © - Page 8 Candy_bins

Reflections from LL © - Page 8 Candy_bins

http://www.montanacandyemporium.com/

Can someone tell me how a product of the Montana Candy Emporium differs from a product of an ABS Semen catalog?

hint...think biggs Smile

Posts : 31 Join date : 2010-11-11 Age : 66 Location : KY

MKeeney wrote:: Remindful of bull sale catalog introductions, I must say that this is your best post ever Mr. Leonhardt...one small note of correction, there is no Red Lodge Candy Store in Red Lodge...instead there is

The Montana Candy Emporium

http://www.montanacandyemporium.com/

Can someone tell me how a product of the Montana Candy Emporium differs from a product of an ABS Semen catalog?

hint...think biggs.

Mike, probably not read enough to get your hint.....My take is that the candy looks pretty good in those pictures, much like
the fancy, full color, glossy ABS semen brochures, however, neither is probably very good for you.
The TruLine Candy Store would be an exception..... Wink

Guest

Each product is separate and distinct in its type from the product in the next barrel. The products simply are what they are. ABS on the other hand would be like mixing them all. Say you are needing some atomic fireballs, with the Tru Line candy store you can go right in and grab yourself a bag of fireballs, with the ABS candy store you might be able to find a barrel that contains some fireballs but also a whole lot of other stuff. You would be just as likely to get a peppermint, lemondrop, rootbeer barrel, or a jolly rancher as you would be to get that fireball you were after. With so many choices it is hard to know what to choose from the Tru Line candy store but when you make your choice that best suits your end goal you can rest assured that what you see is what you get. On the other hand at the ABS candy store your choice won't much matter because no matter which barrel you choose you are going to get a mixture of candies some pretty good and some you just can't stand. I like the the Tru Line candy store I can grab what I want and rarely get one of those nasty candies I have to settle for at ABS.

Ben Loyning, In the vicinity of getting addicted to candy while I'm getting un addicted to nicotine.

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Wed May 02, 2012 10:02 am

Larry Leonhardt wrote:: Picture taken by my sister-in-law from her home terrace in the Bronx, NYC

Our advances from the Wright Bros to Space Shuttles in my lifetime dictate that sooner or later all our journeys become outdated and are relegated to the museums of history for posterity. Man envisioned space flight long before it happened.....any progressive advances are envisioned before they happen....always happening by circumstance. Cars get double the gas mileage of 50 years ago with more horsepower, climate control, sun roofs and directional maps on the dash to take us anywhere we want to go. Tractors are guided invisibly from the sky and the spectacular universe is plotted by colors for us to visualize on a computer screen - whether it is all worth it or not. Despite any resistance, circumstances will also relegate today's traditional cattle breeding habits to the museums of history for posterity.

In the interests of advancing the efficiency of beef production, thank you an over-valued million for your post Hilly - first you lost your goldy locks, sacrificed an ear and now with your tongue stuck in your cheek rendering you speechless, I'm glad your fingers are still working. No one is irreplaceable and I thoroughly enjoy participating in these discussions on KC, but then I pay the price for neglecting my day to day duties. Just what are my duties beyond providing a basic livelihood for my family with more and more insatiable wants ? I should be out planting corn but its been cold with icy winds changing from highs in the 80's a few days ago to recent high's in the low 30's. There are some things we just can't change.

For now, that expensive SUPER HYBRID corn seed is likely better off still in the bag. Hybridization is commonly used to increase production..... we even have hybrid cars, but they are expensive and their maintenance and durability remains questionable. There are always debates over ascertaining values, it's worthiness.... $300 seed to produce $6.00 HYBRID corn could equate to an average value of HYBRID bulls and cows being worth the same price per pound as averaged finished hybrid slaughter steers and heifers.....I question why they need to be valued or worth any more.

The price of progress is never cheap.....producing seed with all the scientific research and development costs built-in to cover all the breeders failures to achieve some success, selling semen out of virtually non-existant genuine purer bulls is about like selling pure corn seed one kernel at a time. I often question the affordability of our advanced technology. Economically, I don't know whether I am gaining or losing while increasing production but I do know the pressures and risk have increased dramatically with our demands for higher expectations and standards of living.

I don't like paying $300 dollars a bag for seed, $250 an acre for beet seed & tech fees, $1000 a ton for fertilizer, over $4.00 for diesel, exhorbitant machinery and maintenance costs, rising property and sales taxes, the vagaries of the weather, the unpredictability of the cattle and cattle markets, slick salesman, getting old ......and most of all the risk of wasting money on speculative, over-valued high-priced hybrid bulls. I don't mind paying income taxes, at least it's an indicator that I must've made some money from my work. And some years we lose money so I wonder if it is worth the continueous struggle and why in the sam hell I am a farmer.

Well, Paul Harvey said on the eighth day, God made farmers to take care of what He created, to have dominion over all creatures. So, I must be one of those privileged doomed with an unpreventable inherent affection for that duty. My neighbor struggling on a poor farm once sincerely told me he believes that if he does a good job with his farm in this godforsaken area, when he goes to Heaven God will give him a very good farm (like in IA or KY)....smiling, I told him if I have to farm in Heaven, I'm seriously considering being a Jihad suicide bomber in order to spend eternity pitting cherries.

But one day walking down my lonely road less traveled, I realized if it is in Heaven as it is on earth, then here we are in heaven still battling the devil the same as God ... that blowhards and bull shitters were still provided to serve fools while Angels help the needy. Surely caretakers were gifted with the brains to know the difference between what we can change and what we cannot. As caretakers then, we're assigned the duty to help those who cannot help themselves.

I've noticed by nature, most farmers are independent creatures often captivated by a generic marketplace buying retail and selling wholesale. They will search out ways to free themselves, isn't that right Kent Powell ! Caretakers know that things must get worse before they can get better, that extravagant high prices cure high prices, that feasts are followed by famine, all intermixed in our lives where heaven and hell are in one dimension.....and so we've learned that we must make hay while the sun shines for without rain there would be no hay.

So during the dawn of another new progressive era in beef production among the positives and negatives, I've learned that inbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....outbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....hybridization is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it......EPD are not bad, they are the only way we can measure a hybrid's performance.....maintaining ancestral records is not bad, it is our mixed up overglorification of them.....contructive criticism is not bad, it is our personal vindictive jealousy. Variation is not bad, it is a miracle of joyful and wonderful assortment available for us to coordinate. I can become like a kid or an adult overwhelmed in the Red Lodge Candy Store trying to decide among the many barrels of different candy which kind I'd like the most.....ending up filling a bag full up mixed up assortments to taste each with their own unique and distinct flavor. How can heaven possibly be better than that, ultimately finding those that we prefer over others.....I like black licorice, my wife can't stand it.

Excited with all that I saw right before my eyes, in 1983 I decided to open up a TruLine Candy Store but no one wanted to make the candy.....not I said the registered people, not I said the composite people to the little man and they laughed and played their games searching for the plastic prizes in their cracker jack boxes.... no factory, no product, the TruLine store remained empty. Being a caretaker of the needy, like it or not, to fulfill my duty I needed to build a factory.starting somewhere before the sky starts falling. Since there is no time in eternity, I don't need to live as long as Methuselah, Noah's ancestor. The"reigns" since Bakewell have recycled over and over again.for the last 100 years of days and nights. And lo and behold, the rains have brought forth a renewed freshness for new grass to grow improving the efficiency of beef production one step at a time.

So while old factories who wrap their products in alluring deceptive packages are beginning to shut down, what a grand opportunity to build a new modern one where the candy in the TruLine store will each be wrapped in clear cellophane, affordable in barrel volume for the needy...... it is the destiny of our duty to rid the devils of deception from our heavenly midst.......................

LL - excited to be in the vicinity of caretakers building new candy factories manned by leprechauns busy as beavers to supply the TruLine Store while DV and his band of experienced KC soldiers guard the entrance to keep it free of devil infiltrators while I go back out and plant some H Y B R I D corn for silage...... not for me but for my cattle in order to be a better caretaker

Vintage LL, the type of conversation that happens after hours of working on the rats nest, searching the smoke for fleeting bits of clarity, the ever present good humoured twinkle exposing the acceptance of what is.

If we reap what we sow, you have to consider why we would go to the work of sowing in the first place, Not I said the....

As undervalued and permanent needs give way to overvalued and transitory wants in the wake of abundance and disrespected freedoms, you would think it important to understand the basic folly of claiming knowledge of intended consequences, over and above change.

The expedientially accelerated rate of that change lends itself to high speed distractions and even with the advancement of the GPS and the directional map on the dash, increases the risk of getting lost in the individual search for enough.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

the most striking sentences I read today were in reference to Wendell Berry, a modern day Thoreau who stayed by his Walden, from a source that will remain anonomous...

And I know from watching him deliver his words his time is precious. He doesn’t need to meet any more people to know they exist. All of this in the name and word affection

Is it strange to think what is happening here is based more on affection than economics? I don`t think so...

mk, in the vicinity of carrying and placing smaller stones at the end of the path these days because Tru-line is so lightly traveled...

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

“Man's greatness lies in his power of thought.” - Blaise Pascal