Disagreements With the Angus Association and Papered Cattle

Coming from a family that has been in the registered Angus Business since 1957 you can imagine the look of disgust from 1 of my cousins at Thanksgiving dinner today about me turning 3 bulls out with a group of heifers...and the disgust was not from being 1/2 brother/sister matings on many depending on who zooms who. I am not breeding cattle to impress my cousin but not against convincing there might be better ways. Could we make a list of disagreements those getting away from the paper system have with the Angus Association so that I can more completely present my side? I believe a few are that papers do not necessarily represent true increased genetic value for the commercial cattle person. Another would be all the fees associated with providing the data to the Association. One more would be the feeling that Association and lets include the Universities promote maximizing numbers instead of maybe optimizing numbers and that they are essentially calling our cattle bad for Yearly Weight EPD's of 40. Anybody else have anything important to add or clarify?

In an isolated population or strain when mating type to type, there is no longer a need to track EPD's, the genotypic core remains the same once the nucleus is ascertained. Selection is also simpler when the phenotype actually represents it's more renewable genotype. Selection from the top to bring up the bottum is no longer necessary, the means or intermediate is the "top", the bulk of the distribution. There are no "top" bulls, after the initial selection they can sort themselves in multiple sire breeding pastures. Nature's way to enhance reproduction and built-in vigor, with less dependency on "hybrid" vigor in a population of the same type.

Functional phenotypic selection self-governs the degree of prepotency that can be achieved in accordance with the nucleus of the genotype. There is no need for public pedigrees for scrutinizing searches looking for "superior ancestry"; each generation is a reshuffling of the same genes. No one knows their own cattle better than the owner. There is no need for hype or expensive grandiose promotional advertising; they simply represent a functional type, no more, no less. Word of mouth from customer satisfaction seems to be both the best and cheapest way to advertise.

From X-Strain by LL

the truth is very simple - so simple that most will not understand.

Mark Day wrote:

Coming from a family that has been in the registered Angus Business since 1957 you can imagine the look of disgust from 1 of my cousins at Thanksgiving dinner today about me turning 3 bulls out with a group of heifers...and the disgust was not from being 1/2 brother/sister matings on many depending on who zooms who. I am not breeding cattle to impress my cousin but not against convincing there might be better ways. Could we make a list of disagreements those getting away from the paper system have with the Angus Association so that I can more completely present my side? I believe a few are that papers do not necessarily represent true increased genetic value for the commercial cattle person. Another would be all the fees associated with providing the data to the Association. One more would be the feeling that Association and lets include the Universities promote maximizing numbers instead of maybe optimizing numbers and that they are essentially calling our cattle bad for Yearly Weight EPD's of 40. Anybody else have anything important to add or clarify?

the "gotta register to get your EPD`s" shows just how childlike, narrow-minded, and greedy the board and association is; but that would be a reflection of the membership, and boards should represent membership...I have no disagreement with AAA; they are a non-entity in my future; since I am responsible for my future...who is responsible for your cattle future Mark?

When to serve and provide strays into to lead and guide, it only makes sense the membership will change.

The performance era is maturing. With this maturation comes the arrogance that reaches a tipping point of tolerance toward nonconformists.

Mark, Is your cousin a customer or a generous commenter? I've learned that most comments can be ignored without problem. Everybody has a different goal and a different market. I do not want papers because of anybody else. I do want papers not because of anyone else. My cows, my decision, my papers. I am happy that others can do what they want to do and I can do the same. I do not see any "us or them" in the deal. Do what you want and enjoy what you do. Same for linebreeding and inbreeding. Some folks will wave a cross at you like you're a vampire if they find out that you inbreed. Others consider calling 911 to have you picked up as a Looney Tune. I've had folks ask for "non-inbred" individuals as if they were better that the same looking inbred individuals in the group. If you or I look around for everybody else's reasons then we never think out our own reasons. DV has a urinary comparative about peeing in the middle. To me that means do what you do, be what you are and let the chips fall where they may.

Back when I worked with a promotion department, the saying was "tell the people what they want to hear", doesn't matter weather it is true or not. If they hear it enough they will believe it to be true. Papers doesn't make a animal any different but the image, or belief it is better because it has papers or its epd's numbers, is a hard hurdle to jump.

OMG! Does this mean Hoover Dam, 878, 1407, Raven, New Standard, CC&7, Trust, Bushwacker, Rito 6EM3, Pioneer, Bismark, Providence, Rito 2894, Connection, Objective, Correction, Final Answer, Tiger, Moosejaw, Dividend, High Prime, Predestined, Mouse, Complete, Iron Mountain, Uproar, 1961, Destination, Termination, Priority, Right Time, On Time, 036, New Day, Dublin, Hero, Heavy Hitter, Direct Hit, Steakhouse, Upward, onward, Blue Moon, 8180, Brand Name, Image Maker, Lead On, News line, Density, Denali, Eagle Eye, Lookout, Matrix, Breakaway, Dakota Gold, Revelance, Stout, Spartan, Mountain Man, Cowboy, Chisum, Armor, Plainsman, Front page, Frontman, Update, Timeless, Right Answer, Role Model, Thunder, Lookout, Heritage, Lucky Boy, Resume, Settler, Mainline, Roundup, Rito Rito, Forward, New Program, Prime Star, Contrast, Endurance, Day Break, Concrete, Outiftter, High Mark,
Power Design, Wave, On Track, Prime Star, Special Focus, Pound Maker, Final Product, Mandate, Efficient, Absolute, Complete, Function, Easy Street, Maverick, Brilliance, Advocate, Tender Ten, 6595, Empire, Emulate, Tumbleweed, Bluestem, Sandman, Solid Gold, Brave, Sandy, Game Point, Up Shot,
Infinity, Bruiser, Higher Standard, Response, Focal Point, 004, Retail Product, Admiral, Danny Boy, Target, Currency, Shear Force, Band Width, Extra,
Curve Bender, Junction, Monument, Counselor, Added Value, Blueprint, Convoy, Made Right, Double Down, Total, Re-Direct, 5050, Game On, Symmetry, Insight, Mentor, Ambush, Great Divide, Valuebull, War Party, Twenty Twenty, Limelight, Counterpart, Prophet, Progress, Homestead, Change Up, Workhorse, Prosperity, Mustang, Regis, Sterling, Classic, Upside, Vindicator, Hemisphere, Barometer, Summit, Summation, Ingenuity, Scotsman, Beacon, Country, Weigh Up, Confidence, Capitalist, Conveyance, Made Right, and Future Directon.

You don't mean that without PAPERS, they're just bulls? I feel faint..someone catch me, I'm fawling
So many bulls, so little time.

Yeah, I know I missed a few

chocolate cow wrote:

OMG! Does this mean Hoover Dam, 878, 1407, Raven, New Standard, CC&7, Trust, Bushwacker, Rito 6EM3, Pioneer, Bismark, Providence, Rito 2894, Connection, Objective, Correction, Final Answer, Tiger, Moosejaw, Dividend, High Prime, Predestined, Mouse, Complete, Iron Mountain, Uproar, 1961, Destination, Termination, Priority, Right Time, On Time, 036, New Day, Dublin, Hero, Heavy Hitter, Direct Hit, Steakhouse, Upward, onward, Blue Moon, 8180, Brand Name, Image Maker, Lead On, News line, Density, Denali, Eagle Eye, Lookout, Matrix, Breakaway, Dakota Gold, Revelance, Stout, Spartan, Mountain Man, Cowboy, Chisum, Armor, Plainsman, Front page, Frontman, Update, Timeless, Right Answer, Role Model, Thunder, Lookout, Heritage, Lucky Boy, Resume, Settler, Mainline, Roundup, Rito Rito, Forward, New Program, Prime Star, Contrast, Endurance, Day Break, Concrete, Outiftter, High Mark,
Power Design, Wave, On Track, Prime Star, Special Focus, Pound Maker, Final Product, Mandate, Efficient, Absolute, Complete, Function, Easy Street, Maverick, Brilliance, Advocate, Tender Ten, 6595, Empire, Emulate, Tumbleweed, Bluestem, Sandman, Solid Gold, Brave, Sandy, Game Point, Up Shot,
Infinity, Bruiser, Higher Standard, Response, Focal Point, 004, Retail Product, Admiral, Danny Boy, Target, Currency, Shear Force, Band Width, Extra,
Curve Bender, Junction, Monument, Counselor, Added Value, Blueprint, Convoy, Made Right, Double Down, Total, Re-Direct, 5050, Game On, Symmetry, Insight, Mentor, Ambush, Great Divide, Valuebull, War Party, Twenty Twenty, Limelight, Counterpart, Prophet, Progress, Homestead, Change Up, Workhorse, Prosperity, Mustang, Regis, Sterling, Classic, Upside, Vindicator, Hemisphere, Barometer, Summit, Summation, Ingenuity, Scotsman, Beacon, Country, Weigh Up, Confidence, Capitalist, Conveyance, Made Right, and Future Directon.

You don't mean that without PAPERS, they're just bulls? I feel faint..someone catch me, I'm fawling
So many bulls, so little time.

Yeah, I know I missed a few

Is this the list Foxx bought semen on last year? A can`t miss list

How funny, Mike. That was where the "inspiration" came from for my list.

Quote :

You don't mean that without PAPERS, they're just bulls? I feel faint..someone catch me, I'm fawling
So many bulls, so little time.

Yeah, I know I missed a few

CC, I do not know your background, etc, but you did miss some bulls that are important to what I do: 544, 640, 684, 691, 706, 715, 725 and 734. If I were to hire you to help me sell calves by these bulls to individuals who do not know me, what would you tell potential customers about them? Individual performance, dam record, what I expect, that I can be trusted even though they do not know me? I must admit I have an honest face because so little of it is exposed!

I am quite comfortable with how I am going about things. I still like knowing pedigrees. I have been selling bulls for more $ than ever have which is still not big money but closer to fair money. No one asks for papers and no idea the last time I sold a registered female but suspect it was to a young lady that took her to Louisville and got last in class and then decided to spend thousands at Champion Hill. If that was not the last time then it might of been to a realstate king in Chicago that has also moved on to bigger and better things. A lurker on here was recently told that he did not need a good bull because he just owns commercial cows without papers. I find that a bit insulting but that is how most look at it. I just wanted to make sure I had not forgotten anything when I brought up the subject and figured nothing wrong with allowing new lurkers to see our stance.
MD, the guy in charge of a historic Angus herd that is enjoying the compliments about his non registered bulls.

Sorry, Eddie, you've got the wrong person to sell your cattle. Wanna see the pictures of the deformed calves I've gotten from people I trusted and cattle I thought were okay?

Is there a fundamental flaw with registration papers?

Is there a fundamental flaw with tracking ancestry?

Is there a fundamental flaw with privately held pedigrees?

Is there a fundamental flaw with not knowing the ancestry?

Is there a fundamental flaw with not caring about ancestry?

Is there a fundamental flaw with registration papers?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with tracking ancestry?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with privately held pedigrees?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with not knowing the ancestry?
yes
Is there a fundamental flaw with not caring about ancestry?
yes

[quote="Mark Day"] it was to a young lady that took her to Louisville and got last in class and then decided to spend thousands at Champion Hill. good riddance
If that was not the last time then it might of been to a realstate king in Chicago that has also moved on to bigger and better things. and went broke so doingquote]

Is it possible to have a form of documented ancestry that would be relevent to others when describing one's own breeding program? Names on paper wouldn't mean alot unless the person was familiar with the animals listed. At a quick glance of most pedigrees today you can quickly see that most "breeders" have no depth as their prefix does not go back much, if any. One could argue that even if it did that still does not mean any constructive breeding has ocurred. If one had a herd, whether it was 40 or 400 head and the same type of cow was replicated(hopefully a worthy cow) could that be the real documented ancestry? Does anyone see a form of paper possible excluding the fact of monetary explotation? As the North American cowherd turns black (only by colour) will packers look for some sort of verification on breed? Just some thoughts on a rainy Sunday morning .

I see the pedigree as a guide to avoid inbreeding in most herds today. Rather than a pen of uniform animals, It is a pen of animals to selected specifically avoid uniformity. Genetic reach.

Mark Day wrote:

Coming from a family that has been in the registered Angus Business since 1957 you can imagine the look of disgust from 1 of my cousins at Thanksgiving dinner today about me turning 3 bulls out with a group of heifers...and the disgust was not from being 1/2 brother/sister matings on many depending on who zooms who. I am not breeding cattle to impress my cousin but not against convincing there might be better ways. Could we make a list of disagreements those getting away from the paper system have with the Angus Association so that I can more completely present my side? I believe a few are that papers do not necessarily represent true increased genetic value for the commercial cattle person. Another would be all the fees associated with providing the data to the Association. One more would be the feeling that Association and lets include the Universities promote maximizing numbers instead of maybe optimizing numbers and that they are essentially calling our cattle bad for Yearly Weight EPD's of 40. Anybody else have anything important to add or clarify?

well Mark,
57 years represents a lot of TRADITION; congratulations to you for the first step toward creating a new future; like me, I think it was easy for you because the primary thing you gave up was tradition; and certainly not anything genetic...you can still track ancestry, or make your base so narrow there isn`t a lot of point in even that...Let`s get down do it; money is the primary factor involved in registering cattle...there is a false perception that registered equals superior genetics; and most had rather operate on the idea that perception is reality, than to create true reality....there`s $200, maybe $2000, and sometimes $20,000 to be made on the mis-perception...why mess up a good thing when the public is willing?
present this pedigree to Carlos and ask him if he would prefer to rely on reading the pedigree to determine how and where to use this Tru-Line product, or would he prefer to take the manufacturers recommendation ...

Keystone wrote:

I see the pedigree as a guide to avoid inbreeding in most herds today. Rather than a pen of uniform animals, It is a pen of animals to selected specifically avoid uniformity. Genetic reach.

Do you want your commercial customers to avoid inbreeding?

Is more uniformity achieved through inbreeding or outcrossing or crossbreeding?

craig wrote:

Is it possible to have a form of documented ancestry that would be relevent to others when describing one's own breeding program? Names on paper wouldn't mean alot unless the person was familiar with the animals listed. At a quick glance of most pedigrees today you can quickly see that most "breeders" have no depth as their prefix does not go back much, if any. One could argue that even if it did that still does not mean any constructive breeding has ocurred. If one had a herd, whether it was 40 or 400 head and the same type of cow was replicated(hopefully a worthy cow) could that be the real documented ancestry? Does anyone see a form of paper possible excluding the fact of monetary explotation? As the North American cowherd turns black (only by colour) will packers look for some sort of verification on breed? Just some thoughts on a rainy Sunday morning .

Good post

MKeeney wrote:

Is there a fundamental flaw with registration papers?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with tracking ancestry?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with privately held pedigrees?
no, just a conceptional one

Is there a fundamental flaw with not knowing the ancestry?
yes
Is there a fundamental flaw with not caring about ancestry?
yes

So it is a yes or no world now, eh? I like to be asked yes or no questions, especially from my wife, but I don't like to ask them.

Quote :

As the North American cowherd turns black (only by colour) will packers look for some sort of verification on breed?

I am not worried about that happening. They don't ask breed for other things we eat do they? If it looks like it and taste like it then it must be.

Better think that statement over.

CANBERRA, Australia—Restaurants around the world will soon use new DNA technology to assure patrons they are being served the genuine fish fillet or caviar they ordered, rather than inferior substitutes, an expert in genetic identification says.

In October, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration officially approved so-called DNA barcoding -- a standardized fingerprint that can identify a species like a supermarket scanner reads a barcode -- to prevent the mislabeling of both locally produced and imported seafood in the United States. Other national regulators around the world are also considering adopting DNA barcoding as a fast, reliable and cost-effective tool for identifying organic matter.

David Schindel, a Smithsonian Institution paleontologist and executive secretary of the Washington-based Consortium for the Barcode of Life, said he has started discussions with the restaurant industry and seafood suppliers about utilizing the technology as a means of certifying the authenticity of delicacies.

"When they sell something that's really expensive, they want the consumer to believe that they're getting what they're paying for," Schindel told The Associated Press.

"We're going to start seeing a self-regulating movement by the high-end trade embracing barcoding as a mark of quality," he said.

While it would never be economically viable to DNA test every fish, it would be possible to test a sample of several fish from a trawler load, he said.

Schindel is organizer of the biennial International Barcode of Life Conference, which is being held Monday in the southern Australian city of Adelaide. The fourth in the conference series brings together 450 experts in the field to discuss new and increasingly diverse applications for the science.

Applications range from discovering what Australia's herd of 1 million feral camels feeds on in the Outback to uncovering fraud in Malaysia's herbal drug industry.

Schindel leads a consortium of scientists from almost 50 nations in overseeing the compilation of a global reference library for the Earth's 1.8 million known species.

The Barcode of Life Database so far includes more than 167,000 species.

Mislabeling is widespread in the seafood industry and usually involves cheaper types of fish being sold as more expensive varieties. A pair of New York high school students using DNA barcoding of food stocked in their own kitchens found in a 2009 study that caviar labeled as sturgeon was actually Mississippi paddlefish.

In a published study a year earlier, another pair of students from the high school found that one-fourth of fish samples they had collected around New York were incorrectly labeled as higher-priced fish.

Mislabeling of fish -- which account for almost half the world's vertebrate species -- also poses risks to human health and the environment.

Quote :

there is a false perception that registered equals superior genetics

That is one false perception. A couple more are that fat sells (and while it does I don't think as well as it once did and I don't think it always pays most profit). Another is that AI genetics are superior to Natural service genetics. Another false perception is that high sale averages equal success and a reflection of the genetics/quality being offered. All these topics were discussed at my Thanksgiving day gathering. Life might be more peaceful next year AI'ing with a 40YW epd bull as I always do it Thanksgiving weekend.