Reflections from LL ©

MKeeney wrote:

R V wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

R V wrote:

The bull appears very similar to my 41/97 bull when he was a year or two younger and presume that he is another 41/97 son. Is it still okay to ask about breeding/ancestry of a bull? I am still trying to get better at the type to type breeding. Since 41/97 has more linebreeding than most American angus and he is an outcross to our cattle, would the first generation progeny be more consistent in type and performance?

let me consult The Manifesto and get back to you Ron

oooookkkk, he is not a 41/97...but I would sell you a 41/97, with Viking in the pedigree twice, and he`s already half way to your place

Darn, now I am more curious about the pedigree and I wish I had a picture of my bull when he was a year or two younger. Maybe it is just "the pose in his working clothes," but the two dimensional view is eerily similar. Maybe they are a lot alike in type and breeding and maybe very little, but I suspect the type is similar and that is a concept that I am having a hard time getting down.

I actually do need a bull and would be interested in your bull.

FROM LL...
In this business I am constantly reminded of the Charles Mingus quote - "Making the simple complicated is commonplace, Making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, That's creativity." R V, I cannot thank you enough for saying "the two dimensional view is eerily similar", in gratitude a KISS from the manifesto for helping me make a point.
I was reminded of a childhood riddle of what is black and white and red all over.....add the letter 'a' in "read" and the answer was a newspaper. Additive and subtractive genes....we seem to favor making the simple complicated but I think about how we all tend to ignore the simple basic guideline of the Manifesto - "form follows functional selection" whether it is a 41/97 or a multi-sired Shoshone.

Whether our cattle are red, black, white or blue, this simple universal guideline eventually always holds true with or without pedigrees, measures or DNA. I really don't know how to explain any clearer how when our cattle breed true to their look, there is a commonality of that functional form as it becomes more prepotent or predominent irregardless of origin. But it seems the mainstream is never satisfied with a single prepotent form. I am reminded of that picture I submitted of that long line of dogs waiting to pee on a single tree, which one is the best dog for me. Some science people have told us about 98% of our human DNA is the same as chimpanzees and have told us there are very few genes involved in what makes a dog into a Collie or a Spaniel.....or from a dwarf to a giant....and so RV, if we can increase or decrease the frequencies of a type via selection, I am wondering why you would have a hard time with a type to type concept.

In my simple mind then, it seems to me that we must want a type to do more than it can consistently do at one time. Everyone seems to be searching for a simple quick black and white answer. So I am enjoying the discussions of Jbob's dilemma on "riddle me this" regarding his outlier bull....will he be or is he not to be,that is the question. While Bootheel and Jack are free at last from the circular whims, I particularly enjoyed Patb's post of the AAA's long range plan survey, they must be as confused as the rest of us looking for direction.....but my all time favorite topic thus far is Taylor Orr's solution to Angusology to better enjoy his retirement years.

So as we swing and sway to the music of Danny Kaye, perhaps some lyrics of Ma for prolific reproduction and Pa for more precise production could be written to make for a romantic harmonius duo to produce better children.....I'm thinking about searching the internet on Facebook or E Harmony.com to find the perfect match. While Taylor feels like we're kickin a dead horse, Mike is an optimist practicing resurrection.

Mike's topic on "Inbred Selection" offers some excellent examples of the resurrection to a better place.....and population genetics. I hope the parallel genetic principles of cattle and corn as examples will help clarify the manifesto in addition to the ones with pigs, chickens, fish and sugarbeet seed. This is not just about increasing production, or measuring and marketing of parent stock, it is all about fixing types to improve both the efficiency and quantity/quality of hybrid production.....to gain more from less over time. And yes, that requires a lot of time and patient persistent dedication which we all seem to lack. But surely it is a worthwhile and possible direction one step at a time......Mike and I see our glasses as half full, not half empty. For those who cannot accept the concept, it is kickin a dead horse....but for those who do, they know their horses are just napping saving their energy for the big race in the survival of the fittest....what we lack are some trainers

Don`t tell me cattle breeding isn`t like a religion; it is to the cattle breeder who determines value by genetic accomplishment ...it`s only a business model to the marketer who measures his success with money...
I practice resurrection with every newborn calf, and Larry`s writing above is like an altar call to a promised land that I can finally see...the fact I don`t have time to get there is a good reason to start the journey sooner...the trip requires no great sacrifice; there`s beef aplenty to eat along the way...

R V, I cannot thank you enough for saying "the two dimensional view is eerily similar", in gratitude a KISS from the manifesto for helping me make a point.

Glad to be of service!

Even a deeper thanks for the answers and thinking that they stimulated. It appears that wasn't really the "type to type breeding concept" that I didn't understand, but understanding what functional types look like on the hoof and how to apply this to breeding. I am still having a hard time getting away from my "favorite type" and shifting it to my favorite functional type/form. I still have a lot to learn. Thanks again!

Quote :

It is obvious why none of the bulls promoted in the MT Angus News advertise the $EN requirements of their daughters, nor their stayability....

Boy am I glad you said that and not me...I made mention of that over on the other site once--and questioned why so many folks left it out of their sale catalogs when they have every other number known to man listed -- and was chastised severely for even mentioning it......

Quote :

Boy am I glad you said that and not me...I made mention of that over on the other site once--and questioned why so many folks left it out of their sale catalogs when they have every other number known to man listed -- and was chastised severely for even mentioning it......

And yet this site is supposed to be the biased, mean, cut you off at half breath site! I wonder what is my EPD for Civility?

Oldtimer wrote:

Quote :

It is obvious why none of the bulls promoted in the MT Angus News advertise the $EN requirements of their daughters, nor their stayability....

Boy am I glad you said that and not me...I made mention of that over on the other site once--and questioned why so many folks left it out of their sale catalogs when they have every other number known to man listed -- and was chastised severely for even mentioning it......

kinda like when the actual numbers, for let`s use ultrasound for an example, are patheic...then don`t use actual, ratio them

From LL...

From Taylor's topic on "Angusology", my new favorite topic for entertainment is the "Laws of Marketing"....I watched about $300 million in 30 second aggrandized ads during the super bowl and none of them convinced me to go out and buy their products while Fox made lots of money. Marketing is probably the second oldest business and I enjoy watching all the opinions, records and preludes of the super bowl like I do the academics vs. the pragmatics on this forum, seeing how the momentum shifts and wondering who the winners will be.....it's a struggle to stay on top......requiring team efforts as the spectators root for their favorite team.

D F said " ....How often do you hear Jorgensen type, Ohlde type, Pharo type, etc.? The type is named. What is the Shoshone type?" Great question, since there is no so-called unique Shoshone type. Defining types..... in my own small world I suppose my preferred type consists of part everything, part Wye, part Craigie, a team all wrapped in a see-thru cellophane package tied with a big wide Bonsma yellow reproduction bow for attraction. Being somewhat of a pragmatic prognostic, I did give Mike a quick description of my favorite type within that package when he asked "just what criteria would you use to cut the herd in half?"

For enhanced attraction, I responded with "Technical stuff like pedigree and looks ..... I've always been a sucker for pretty faces, especially cows with long eyelashes and sexy eyes first, then on down to small shoulders, tidy boobs, nice legs and hips
Actually, I was serious about functional sexual distinction, and familiarity with the continuity of ancestoral functional characters is of utmost importance to me. I learned that from my wife and family ancestry and descendants who's characteristics suddenly reappear out of nowhere. Mike says he can't describe"it", but he recognizes it when he sees it. If we need to beware of those bearing surprise gifts, I do prefer packages that are more than just skin deep, yet be cows that cause commercial producers to turn around for an admiring second look ....to attract them to a way to help them produce more from less. Falloon says his production consists of bulls, beef and cull cows.....My production consists of cows, beef and cull female bulls.....some might call female bulls a "ladies man" rather than a "man's man".

I chuckled when D F said - "You may not have to define your product; define your opponents product. Get a picture of the poorest cow you can find; get somebody to draw it if you think that is better..."Is your bull having trouble making love to this cow?".....I was hoping the other Dennis will put his artistic talents to work and draw my preferred type of cow as described to Mike....without looking like his favorite antelope. I was hoping D F could describe or draw a picture of a bull that my cows would "love"....and hopefully provide an illustration of what he means when he says "Balancers are successful because the association defined what a Balancer was .....The point is that Balancers are pretty "average" for lots of traits but were a solution to making crossbreeding easy." So, if "easy come, easy goes", I wondered if pretty "average" Angus in lots of traits would also make both straightbreeding and crossbreeding easier......but we face the dilemma of how would we market them.

Mike says "RARITY sells" and darn, that reminded me of his "stick man ad", thinking how it conflicts with how average Angus are so rare in the registered business and yet they don't sell too well. D F responded - Well, what could be more rare than a highly inbred, Shoshone bull? There sure aren't very many around in comparison to other high dollar cattle. Increase the price if you think they are special. " Increasing the price would be easy and often works for the seller, but I suppose it is time for me to once again interject that my primary objective remains the development of parent stock that can regularly produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns to the commercial beef industry. Lest we forget, marketing them at high prices simply because of rarity goes against the very heart of this basic concept, I would prefer that they'd be a "dime a dozen" and we could get back to selling cattle by the pound in order to make a profit......but that would be out of fashion.

Unlike Bootheel I have never seen "a swamp rabbit on LSD that jumped into a meth lab, cooked over a bed of joo-joo beads. Durn thing just kept runnin' in circles, never gettin' anywhere", but I have seen an abundance of lemmings "high" on EPD goin' in "whimsical circles". I enjoy all the tits for tats on this forum but in our rendezvous with destiny, I am not at all concerned that the principles of common sense values will ultimately prevail.....it is not a matter of if, but the bad news is when. So, I guess I'll just copy Bootheels ending comment....SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY.....for us simple people as I eagerly await to see both the Dennis' illustrated animated caricatures of the various defined types to use as our selection guidelines.....Do you suppose the therapeutic rooms of RBPS's joint McNamee-Voss VENTure will be adorned with those pictures????, and after readin' his high tech response to RBPS, I no longer need to wonder why Bootheel lives in the "show me" state

A question to all the Shoshone users...
I have noticed that the CED and CEM on many of the Shoshone bulls is quite low- even when compared to some of the more stockier types....

Is this trait not antagonistic to open range calving? Or do these EPD's not show a true picture?

CED and CEM are antagonistic to calving in the barn even The EPD`s would be very low accuracy, but from experience I would pick my Shoshone bulls for CED/heifers cautiously...I would also guess the Shoshone CEM, or the ability of a cow or heifer to calve, to be the best of my experiences...

Life is so much simpler when you don't buy...just produce and sell. The only decision is what to keep...and even if you make a mistake, it's not going to change much...if anything.

so simply accurate... if you don`t get conned, you don`t have to con...

Other than our cabin-fever induced witty banter and nicknaming, it's awful quiet around here lately. Do any of the other underlings wonder if the powers that be are up to something, what with all the talk of revolution and manifestos???

Tom D wrote:

Other than our cabin-fever induced witty banter and nicknaming, it's awful quiet around here lately. Do any of the other underlings wonder if the powers that be are up to something, what with all the talk of revolution and manifestos???

There is a aura of spring in the air today-- like about a 50 mph NW aura...Temp went from 34 Below on Monday night- and 27 Below Tuesday night-- to 27 Above this morning... And the Chinook wind is howling... I don't know if the cows ever did chase down 1/2 the hay I rolled out this morning....

Just to get in the true "spring is coming" feeling- I'm going to run to the local salesyard and take in Wittkopps bull sale this afternoon...

Tom D wrote:

Other than our cabin-fever induced witty banter and nicknaming, it's awful quiet around here lately. Do any of the other underlings wonder if the powers that be are up to something, what with all the talk of revolution and manifestos???

Talk is easy; talk sells and improves nothing...applying the principles is the difficult and quiet work...the Work has begun...

A rather sobering search result for "when all`s been said, and nothing done"

3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

MKeeney wrote:

A rather sobering search result for "when all`s been said, and nothing done"

3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

Ecclesiastes?

yelp..but it also says "a time to sow"...so, let`s get to it

Perhaps the largest user of Shoshone bulls over the last several years checked in this morning; Bob Howard near Boise, ID...Bob sent a couple of pictures along of Shoshone sired heifers; perhaps more than 1/2 Shoshone. Bob is an ultimate kind of low input producer; 5 to 6 inches of rainfall yearly...cattle raised on grass year round...I find the type an interesting departure from what the writing guru`s tell us we need in the way of genetics...





Shoshone bulls make the cows; Eaton Charolais bulls make the beef...part of a 45,000 head co-op; carcass data is accumulated on all cattle...more details later, but when you understand types, you don`t need a lot of data to project outcomes...

So what does the pictures tell us, MikeK?

First, they show me the type a working cattle ranch prefers for commercial economic reasons; not university or registered BS...second, they tell me that when cattle breed like they look, you don`t need EPD`s...Thirdly, they tell me that rangeability is a more a learned trait than a genetic trait contrary to the low input bs guru`s...that oughta hold you for today

Eaton Charolais, to make the beef:












This one is more special because she's mine-- 13 years old, due soon.



One more, from December

Bob is researching Mark Domino Hereford x Shoshone F1...terminated with an Eaton Charolais



We sure don`t have much breed loyalty here at Keeney`s Corner ...primarily, because we know what breeds were created for...

Thank you Mike.
I am not sure what to say but would like to share a few thoughts, because of Larry Leonharts steadfast no nonsense approach to breeding cattle we have been able to learn and receive just what we thought we were getting into 14years ago. Today we have around 400 females that are at least 1/2 Shoshone. We do not identify any individuals within this population. We are in the meat business and have to have populations of predictable females to use to crossbreed on to get an economical, predictable, palatable protein product that makes a profit by using sun light and water. Nothing to it.
Bob

Bob H wrote:

Thank you Mike.
I am not sure what to say but would like to share a few thoughts, because of Larry Leonharts steadfast no nonsense approach to breeding cattle we have been able to learn and receive just what we thought we were getting into 14years ago. Today we have around 400 females that are at least 1/2 Shoshone. We do not identify any individuals within this population. We are in the meat business and have to have populations of predictable females to use to crossbreed on to get an economical, predictable, palatable protein product that makes a profit by using sun light and water. Nothing to it.
Bob

Bob,
thanks for sending the carcass data...I will get it up tonight, as posting a file takes a little doing...or I should be better versed in how to do computer things one...anyway, good to see real results of complimentary type crossing...

Keeping in mind the co-op feeds to be low choice/high select to be a leaner product



couldn`t get this posted in complete form Bob...but the basics are here...amazed at the backfat and grade