Reflections from LL ©

MKeeney wrote:

So many questions, so few answers
In regards to Wyes WW Chart, Jack McNamee asked:
Larry do you know if these weights included the calves from their outcross herd they had from 89-96? If so then outcrossing had no real effect....It would make sense to me that both of these things were going on at the same time. I would think that while they would have been selecting for outliers for use as bulls, they would have also be cull lowliers based on phenotypic production levels. It would be interesting to know at what rate both of these things were going on.

Jack, I suppose we each tend to evaluate data in different ways and I think you have the genetic aspects well in hand. While I am somewhat reluctant to discuss other programs beyond my own, I have been personally familiar with the Wye herd until 1990, now a public research herd. You might be interested to know that Dr. Brinks from CSU (who was on TAD at Wye after the herd was donated to the UMF) had prepared an analytical study from the records of the history of the Wye herd prior to 1978. We know what the selection emphasis was and the calves were creep fed prior to '78. Dr. Brinks measured the trends and the actual 225 day weaning weights were steadily increasing. Since that time without creep, if you look at the bar graph closely you will notice what I call a consistant waving trend, a few years up and then fewer down, repeating itself five times over this time period since....guesstimating the last five years from 2005 to 2010 not shown on the graph would be the formation of another wave up.

I call this surfing the waves, our reactions to our selection from the trade-offs within the true genetic level of a population in accordance with the natural laws of inheritance. For whatever Wye's own reasons, their recent bull sale offerings are being selected and tested consisting of two or three from a particular sire, involving many sires, some old and some new. I found Wright's long term guineau pig study of isolated families to parallel the way gene segregation occurs in our breeds of dogs and cattle or whatever. Recent discussions on the merits of different breeds are being debated on this topic.

When I reflect back to my first experiences with beef cattle and milking our own cow(s) at about 8 years of age, on a previous post I pictured my 4-H Hereford heifer Tessie. In those days probably 90% of the commercial herds had Herefords. Every so often they would introduce a Shorthorn to improve the milk. Hereford feeder cattle who had a "white lineback", brocko face or "roanish haircoat" were discounted, suspected of being part Shorthorn. Hereford people criticized Angus bulls for their lack of asses, they liked bulls with a full "twist" between their back legs with full flanks....fat, some liked "mellow yellows" with big bone and wide muzzles...darker reds, the shade of Shorthorn red, were discriminated against. While Dennis and Bootheel talk about roosters, I have plenty of stories about my boyhood days and odd cattle habits....which still prevail : )

When Dennis displayed those pictures of Beetseed, I laughed thinking he is reaffirming the reputation of those finer boned, assless Angus bulls and how Eddie M is concerned about those pictures like Craig submitted ..... how those young Shoshone bulls look awfully regressed. I can't find the picture right now, but Mikek sent me a picture of a Wagyu bull a few years ago and I laughed thinking how much he looked like Beauigan or Balboa. And I also laughed when Henry B. told me his Wagyu half blood bulls looked like damn sorry Angus bulls. No wonder I enjoy breeding cattle, it is so full of laughs from all the silly things we do.

Mikej said: ......"And the highest marbling Wagyu have the least milk. So "milk/marbling type" does not neccesarily equal large milk production. Maybe it's not all so neat and tidy as I'd like to think." Certainly the dairy cow is the ultimate "maternal machine" but the difference in the Jersey and the Holstein or dual purpose Simmentals is their "density"....or size.

Mean Spirit says:
In my dairy cow vet days, lameness was a constant problem. Sometimes hairy warts, sometimes foot rot, but very often plain old laminitis. The modern Holstein, as you guys know, is an extraordinarily delicate flower.
My vet told me ovarian cysts in Holsteins were a major problem, among others. Mark Hannah who operates a 2500 head Jersey dairy told me modern Jersey calves are so frail at birth that without human assistance, few would survive. Ken Clark told me if we could put an Ayrshire udder on an Angus, we'd really have something worthwhile. So, we reap what we sow and the problems come with it.

I watched a science channel show where the only survivors of the larger mammals in Argentina during long droughty periods were those who had the smallest brains since the brain is the biggest user of available energy....and how a small mouselike creature in Australia survives because the male's nuts are as large in proportion to a man having those the size of large watermelons. So I laughed wondering whether Beetseed could "whip a 7 frame Hoffster mobster growth bull in 3 minutes flat" from brain or brawn...reminded of David and Goliath....it couldn't have been from his scrotal size, maybe it was the "female intelligence" Dennis talks about....I noticed he always checks things out first with Erica, learning that from his rooster Fred Frisbee


Bootheel said: I saw a chart somewhere, sometime, that showed a breakdown by breed, and their ability to make prime, choice, etc,.....seemed like Angus, was the only purebred, that could make it to the upper grade, as far as traditional beef breeds go, maybe shorthorn.......yes Wagyu, and a sluece of dairy. I wonder why even beefier Angus have the inate ability to marble.......maybe my memory ain't that good, might have dreamed it....too many exhaust fumes or something.

I cannot spin yarns as well as Dennis or Bootheel, but the rest of the unembellished story behind Beetseed as I remember it goes like this. I came in one day from working in the beetfield, and my wife told me Dennis called and said he thought I would be interested in his ultrasounding results. Most of you know that at one point in time Dennis and Erica were very interested in developing a superior carcass strain of cattle. Dennis told me he had this bull who's ultrasound ratio was about 170 or something near that for marbling, a bull sired by Echo out of 1126's full sister, #1130. A very interesting circumstance if you look up Beetseed's pedigree #14639597....each parent was a highly inbred individual.



Reflecting back at the pictures I submitted on Page 26 of the 1702 cow and Mikes "902" cow, for some reason or another, these cattle tend to switch their tails when they are getting photographed. Not sure what that means, but for those interested in how Beetseed ranks within the breed for individual traits, the following is his EPD percentile graph wherein he is expected to transmit calving ease, near the top for minimum cow maintenance requirements, excellent carcass qualities, a plus 13 milk is enough and I would expect the docility, stayability and longevity could be as good as there is.




Coffelt asked me some valid pertinent questions:

Please find a few questions if you would be so kind to address them. I am interested in your thoughts on a business model.... I AM NOT BREEDING FOR OUTLIERS, BUT PREPOPENT OFFSPRING...... I am interested if LL believes the great things he has done over many years are possible in this day and age. I desired his opinion..... Ranching is a business where economic performance matters...I further asked what genetic variation 5 generations of breeding could be reduced to : This is the second time I have asked and the answer is avoided. The next best source of an answer is the Keeney cows in my herd. The variation is large, and it is my strong opinion that EPD's are needed to make breeding decisions , as the variation is too great....My third question was the genetic significance of a bull excelling on test, and I am interested in LL's answer.

First of all I believe greater things are not only possible in this day and age, more than ever before, they are essential. The business models will take care of themselves from man's own innovative entrepreneurship. The entire beef business is based on economic performance by the per pound marketplace. If the variation is too great in the Keeney cows, it is still not as great as the EPD and phenotypic variation in the Angus breed from which EPD averages are ascertained. I provided an example of the significance of bulls excelling on test as dominance for those measures are increased. The constant additive selection was a step by step process from one through three generations to reach Shanigan...from Franchester to Titan to Shannon to Shanigan with single trait selection. Multi-trait selection would be much slower.

If our single trait selection is to improve the economics of beef production, then certainly prepotency or predictability in the parent stock seems vital. If it is your strong opinion that EPD''s are needed to make breeding decisions, I totally agree with you if you are a commercial producer who must have more reliance on the expected progeny difference FROM THE COMPLEMENTARITY OF THE CROSS of specific parent lines, but I have questioned the necessity for EPD for the development of the functional parent lines or strains. I thought I explained that with the hand holding the crystal ball of pre-evaluated linecrossing systems. The entire cow herd NEEDS to be considered as a genotypic population of one....if we begin with an Angus cow herd....we need to determine which one type of the many types do we prefer. Some breeders may prefer "open pollinated" varieties, but Wright claims successful breeders use closely related prepotent sires of the same type if the objective is to fix characteristics or establish an ideal.

Surely a type like Beetseed and any other similar types would reduce input costs and you could run more animals per acre of feedstuffs or per unit of available energy to offset lower per individual production. There will always be debates over which type of animal people prefer but reliability in nearly anything we purchase is generally an important consideration....whether it is a John Deere or Case IH tractor, who have different competitive models for their own purpose. New technology enhances marketing strategies and I often wonder if the additional costs are worth the convenience of the benefits. It all boils down to each of our own's affordability, when times get tough, we make do with what we have and then reliability becomes more important.
We all know how we tend to become complacent or extravagant when things go well.

If you remain a PCC cooperator, over time your experience will reveal whether or not both you and your customers improve production efficiency as compared to something else.....particularly if you want to improve the prepotency of your offspring without breeding for outliers. Would you also be so kind to address my questions to you. Do the PCC sale prices tend to hinge on the degree of any outlier's own individual performance? Does their individuality override EPD in the marketplace? Someone told me that the sale bulls must pass Kit's comparative standards or are rejected and sold for slaughter. Please explain to me how the PCC program is improving predictability/consistency and profitability not to the cooperators, but to the commercial beef producers with factual data rather than testimonials or opined rhetoric.

I do not want to debate the pros and cons of anyone's breeding program, it is like arguing over which breed is best. About the only thing I can do is to enlighten us all with genetic principles repeating the following paragraph from a previous post and continue providing my personal experiences as examples herein, as JBob says, the ultimate decisions we make are our own and we will either enjoy or despair over these independent decisions.


From a genetic standpoint, I think most of us struggle with the opposite effects between outbreeding and inbreeding during selection. I have been told that the positive phenotypic effects of heterosis are NON- ADDITIVE.....and how many of us stop and think that the negative phenotypic effects of homozygosis would also be NON- ADDITIVE since both revert to their basic average over time. Hybrid vigor/heterosis is explained as a "phenomenon" resulting from hybridization wherein offspring display greater vigor, size, etc than the parents....obviously homozygousity would have the reverse effect from any given centerpoint.

When I use Shannon and Beetseed as examples, their individuality or "looks" is what their EPD truly represents whether we like it or not. The continued predominance of the random half of their genotype depends on the other half they are mated to. Beetseed's individual carcass qualities and his EPD are not a fluke of nature that just happened by mating fire and ice to change an average. Whether these additive results of close breeding are preferred or not, his sire carries an EPD $G value of +31.38, his dam a +22.70 and he has a +32.68. If the primary objective is disrupted by higher marbling values, then he should not be selected as a next generation parent.

I hope my examples help anyone to make better breeding decisions, I prefer not to get into business model discussions regarding monetary values. I did list many of the high prices that people have paid for individuals and anyone can decide whether or not these habits have improved the efficiency of beef production. My primary objective remains the development of parent stock that can regularly produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns to the commercial beef industry.

I've talked about tunneling through all the "snow" to find answers....To all those who might EVER WONDER WHAT TWO FEET OF SNOW LOOKS LIKE ?? WELL----
HERE IT IS----




HEY !! DON'T YELL AT ME--- I DON'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP--

I JUST SEND IT ALONG----

Larry,
I seem to have remembered hearing that Lingle laid you out a mating system for your early Wye purchases that lead to the Midland test successes?

MikeK asked:
Larry,
I seem to have remembered hearing that Lingle laid you out a mating system for your early Wye purchases that lead to the Midland test successes?

First, I want to remind any readers that my purpose here is educational primarily intended for breeders of commercial cattle ....too often I tend to get side-tracked by debating the pros and cons of the traditional selection habits, mostly to demonstrate the results. To move forward and away from that, while learning from the historical experiences of those before us, I am always reminded of the old saying that if we ignore history, we are destined to repeat it .... often laughing about doing the same things over and over again expecting a different result......and yet most of us still do, especially in the political arenas

Mike, the initial mating system that Lingle laid out for me was NOT what lead to my Midland successes in the 70's. Having the impatience of youth, I soon skipped his suggested sequential mating sequence in favor of concentrating the highest growth genes that Wye had developed up to that point in time. The initial mating system Lingle suggested was actually a reflection of his own mating systems from when he began to over a period of 30 years to increase the production of the Wye cow herd. Being a product of his upbringing, including the milking and working with dairy cows, he developed an eye for the dairy cow supplemented with measures and nutritional effects in his directions to increase production. I didn't want to do what he already did all over again so I became an "extension" of the then current Wye herd.

Some of you are aware that Lingle wrote a book describing his life and the evolving processes of the Wye herd, "The Breed of Noble Bloods". He gave me his book, personally autographed December 25, 1976. One of the statements that always stuck in my mind was that he said a dairyman has an advantage over beef cattle fellows since they slept with cows and sat under them milking them by hand....that you really get to know a beast that way....and that breeding a top herd is one of the most difficult jobs in all of Ag. I recommend anyone interested in breeding beef cattle to read his published book. I want to share with you a couple of paragraphs in his ending summation which have had a big impact on me.

"My life has passed through a number of phases. Looking back at the ups and downs, the satisfactions and the disappointments, I find the most important influences were the lasting impressions made on me by an unselfish and saintly mother and a good and dedicated father. If I had not received their early training and the inspiration of their example to deal with others as I would be dealt with, and to do as good a job as my powers allowed, I would never have been trusted with such good land, cattle, and people as has been my privilege.

It has been said "A great herd of cattle is the lengthened shadow of one man". Yet no man can accomplish much by himself alone. He is the sum of all the influences of all his associates. I am not inclined to think of the Wye Angus as a creation of mine. The program is more far-reaching than anything I could ever have created. It is the finest example I know of cooperative effort. Whatever I had to do with its inception by the injection of a few cardinal ideals on breeding and merchandising has come back to me a hundredfold in the confidence and, I believe I may say humbly, the love of my associates. All along the way they have strengthened me with their esteem. The desire to be worthy of them has made me a better husbandman...and in return they have given unstinted devotion to duty.

Sitting back in retirement and surveying the entity that is now Wye Plantation, I can see great things in the future for it and through it for the entire cattle industry.....With it all, the Wye program will remain distinctly practical, aimed at producing practical cattle for practical cattlemen. The Wye product will always be cut from the pattern of goodness.

Of course, the Wye herd was gifted to the UMF two years later, in 1978. Seeing greater things in the future to better serve the "entire cattle industry", these were the inspirational words that contributed to my years of contemplating experiences which led to the birth and conceptual application of Tru-Line. I talked about the importance of the purebred role and stabilizing types back on Page 23 of this topic and how Lingle and K.A. Clark were very supportive of the concept.....yet here I sit nearly 30 years later still waiting and looking for cooperative efforts. While not sitting still in my own learning experiences, I have thought alot about the continued non-acceptance of this concept, and yet the commercial industry readily accepts crossbreeding reinforced by academia approval.

I have surmised that it is the fear of close breeding that is the primary concern of most people. In this regard, a few days ago I received an email from another respected old experienced breeder, Gavin Falloon which is very revealing to me. With his prior permission to utilize his comments if presented in the proper context, here is what he said:

Larry
On the 12.12.2010 you sent me a mail about the wye data and giving me a web where I could get their published data. What interested me was that they stabilized type and levelled performance. So that was why you set out to stabilize phenotype I have only just printed off all the information and have only just had a cursory look at it . When we first closed our herd and the geneticist looked at our pedigees he was horrified at my inbreeding levels, so the programme firstly set out to dissipate those levels. Since our inception, our inbreeding levels have dropped to zero so the scientists tell me. When I suggested that we look at levels they told me that it is not necessary as doing what we were doing they would return to zero. I can see why this would happen ( changing bulls every year) but it does concern me that son William is using more of a very few cows sons in those sires. This has two effects, bringing the herd too close to the pedigees of those few cows which tend to be similar. Raising inbreeding levels. William is constantly concerned with in breeding and so he is constanly on the lookout for old NZ pedigree cattle in other herds that are by our bulls but acceptable phenotypically. Where as what he should be doing is to make sure that the sires used each year are out of different cows in our herd. Unfortunately like all youth he has all the answers.

It does not appear that we have stabilized in any aspect yet. Again the scientists tell me that we never will, provided we keep spreading our genepool by using sire out of different cows (within reason)… I am probably shooting at the clouds yet as I have not carefully studied the wye data just some more thinking to do

Regards to all. When I suggested that Kit Pharos letters were worth looking at it was “marketing” not breeding that I thought was interesting...... but meantime he sure is a hot marketer.

Gavin

In the competitive marketing arena, yesterday, I received two free magazines in the mail, one issued by the Limousin Foundation, the other by the Gelbvieh people.....and both full of articles promoting the values of their breeds for crossbreeding, and many of those articles cite the research data at MARC maximizing heterosis for credibility.....so when in Rome we must do what the Romans do. For those who have followed this topic, you will recall how Tom Burke wrote me and said the Angus breed is at another of its long list of crossroads of change. Of course, the Angus breed promotes it's self sufficiency with all it's diversity to do all things suggesting you to use their data bank to select those bulls to fit your needs. Some use trait leaders which is nothing more than straight bred crossbreeding and others may select a range of preferred types seeking a continuum of outcrosses to avoid close breeding.

Choices....If there is someone out there that is specifically breeding populations of parent stock for optimum complementarity of the cross to improve the predictable consistency of the "seedless fruit", I do no know where they might be. Since I chose not to live in Rome, I often think I must be living in the land of Oz. In the land of Rome, we expect "purebreds" to be phenotypically superior to crossbreds....somehow crossbreds and superior Angus do not have any pathetic progeny I do not know who authored the following post on Keeney's Corner, but I would sure like to meet and welcome him or her to the land of Oz.....or Oddity

The ability to control the end through the Terminal topside for specific markets and improve production efficiency through more trouble free cows matching the environment and management of the individual ranch or area. Custom designed cattle to do a specific job with the beauty of the cowside control being her versatility to reproduce herself or be mated to produce a specific product.

Sold before conception. Plans for longterm. Flexibility through the cow. Precision through the sire. (Too bad that word is now forever tainted)

The cowherd efficiency and the terminal selection suffers from the disfunctional marriage of Terminal, Maternal, Growth, Milk, Lean, Marbling, Muscle, ... and the industry wide parallel selection across breeds. Nothing is as good as it could be or should be. The commercial cattleman is left to pay the price of sorting through and culling more. Producing more from more. Culling more and more. Net result: less and less.

So Mike, I took a long route to answer your question about the mating sequence Lingle offered me. He said to first breed the Wye bull we purchased back to his daughters to establish some genotypic uniformity in that god awful mixed up herd we had, then cross them with the Harvestoun blood for more ______, then cross those with Ballindaloch for _____, then cross those with the Prince Paul lineage for ______ etc. etc.and at some point in time we should begin using our own bulls from which we would make our most progress. Well, I didn't follow thru after the first uneventful disappointments in 1971, but by hook or crook, I now laugh that they were nevertheless instrumental in today's population in the development of sub-populations for the future.

Well, like Lingle, my life has now also passed rather quickly through a number of phases. Looking back at the ups and downs, the satisfactions and disappointments, I find that the most progress I made in the efficiency of beef production was from those first pathetic inbred animals like that one pictured below, who's dam born in 1974 was a result of that first sire/daughter mating sequence. And Nature must have so loved this animal, she gave me two of them born in 1981, for the cow pictured below also had an identical twin sister. Since no one offered any comments on that exhibit, perhaps it is either a little too radical, or, I can only presume that no one would ever consider owning a herd of regressed, functionally efficient cows that looked like that I did learn that by using my own bulls, I did make my most progress for my direction in the land of Oz, my only concern is that the Romans will use them to feed their lions instead of people, but even that would be an improvement ....there is lots of space left yet in this new land of opportunity ..

Quote :

He said to first breed the Wye bull we purchased back to his daughters to establish some genotypic uniformity in that god awful mixed up herd we had, then cross them with the Harvestoun blood for more ______, then cross those with Ballindaloch for _____, then cross those with the Prince Paul lineage for ______

oh my goodness, you mean herds were known in those days to give you certain reliable characteristics when crossed...wow, wouldn`t that be something...well, no, it wouldn`t be something; it would be Tru-line

The cow that is pictured is not too radical for me Larry, I'd take a whole pasture full of her and a whole pen full of the kind of calf thats sucking her. I'm curious as to what the calf is that is sucking her. Was the calf as inbred? How old was she in this picture and what part did her and her twin sister play in your program?

Quote :

The cow that is pictured is not too radical for me Larry, I'd take a whole pasture full of her

Amen.

oh gee, Jack and Eddie, perhaps your comments have emboldened me too much; or perhaps I have misjudged my best imitation of Exhibit 5, causing me to show a 3 yr old cow not fat running on winter stockpile, and with a fall coat of hair...Shoshone with a number, and a pedigree that reads MS, MS, MS...no, no, nothing to do with Mean Spirit, just Minnie



I`ve shown the cow; dare I use her calf, Shoshone bred to be fruitful and multiply his mother`s kind



he was the calf posted two months ago, pictured on the left, on the thread "A tale of two calves"



the other calf is staying true to type as well..

Quote :

oh gee, Jack and Eddie, perhaps your comments have emboldened me too much

Anything to help out!

I reckon Larry has a better picture than you, Mike, this time.

I have been meaning to ask, Whatever became of the Craigie cows, Mr. Leonhardt? I have not noticed them in any of the pedigrees posted and was just wondering how they fit in.

Thanks

Bootheel

MKeeney wrote:

oh gee, Jack and Eddie, perhaps your comments have emboldened me too much;

Oh yea. She'll do just fine.

I am struggling a bit with the idea of population genetics. When in reading Larry's posts about his history and methods, he was able to produce midland winners and then produce consistantly functional x-strain cows by only breeding in that direction for only 3 maybe 4 generations. Why then would you use the population method where you are waiting for a random selection of genes to produce what you qualify as superior animal over a long period of time such as with Mr Fallon's direction? I realize that Larry used outliers, but what about using a set of animals with a good balance of functional traits, but select for a bit more performance or a bit less milk or whatever and achieve the desired results much quicker.

Charles

Bootheel asked:
I have been meaning to ask, Whatever became of the Craigie cows, Mr. Leonhardt? I have not noticed them in any of the pedigrees posted and was just wondering how they fit in.

As I stated in my previous post, my life has passed through a number of phases. I received two potloads of Craigie cows in the early 80's during the races for performance and size with EPD just being in the initial states of development. The bulk of the Craigie EPD were mostly about zero for the few growth traits measured at that time, basically B, WW, YW and MEBV. At that time period, it was very difficult to market zero EPD cattle, just as it has always been difficult to sell "average" registered cattle. I originally had intended to keep them as a separate unit for their carcass quality and cow families...and had a separate member code for them with the AAA. That was also back before the CAB program. I also had to spend several years to gain more familiarity with those cattle. Long story short, I later abandoned those initial plans and eventually via selection I incorporated those I preferred into what I call my yellow tags, the population of the "X" strain. All those females in the herd today that descend from that Craigie base carry an "A" prefix to their cow family number.....the basic gene pool was similar to the Wye herd, while the selection was somewhat different wherein the primary selection criteria on the Craigies was for carcass quality in comparison to the Wye herd where the primary emphasis was on performance.

Charles quote:
I am struggling a bit with the idea of population genetics. When in reading Larry's posts about his history and methods, he was able to produce midland winners and then produce consistantly functional x-strain cows by only breeding in that direction for only 3 maybe 4 generations. Why then would you use the population method where you are waiting for a random selection of genes to produce what you qualify as superior animal over a long period of time such as with Mr Fallon's direction? I realize that Larry used outliers, but what about using a set of animals with a good balance of functional traits, but select for a bit more performance or a bit less milk or whatever and achieve the desired results much quicker.

Of course, we all select individual sires from a population to multiply and develop that population or herd to propagate the preferred characters. To speed up the process, an "outlier" is normally assumed to be the most extreme of something to move a population in a direction. To speed up the process in my direction, I practiced inbreeding and an outlier in my herd may also be defined as those individuals who transmit the characters more often for my "ideal" type, for example the "average". The human difficulty in our endeavors is to ascertain and sustain that type while trying to maintain zero inbreeding or outbreeding. Breeding parent stock for hybrid production (seedless fruit) would dwell on "that random half an animals genotype" as oppsed to the whole....isn't this as clear as mud

?

Dear Mr. Leonhardt,

I hope that you are doing well this winter. You sure have a lot of burdens placed on you by others with questions, comments, requests and worries about the looks of your bulls. When do you plan to take up marital counseling? I have a question about where to squeeze the toothpaste tube that I’d like to ask somebody. I have tried to lessen your burdens some as I have looked at all the lost and found listing I could find to see if anyone ever found the lost Aberdeen for Tom Fame. I have found plenty of things people have apparently lost and others have found: there is a heart that was found in San Francisco, a lot of minds have been found in areas of great worry, even more hinnies have been discovered on the sidewalks of Wall Street. I don’t know if Tom can go back to the crossroads where his Aberdeen fell off of the truck and see if it might be over in the bushes with the beer bottles and hubcaps but it might be worth one more look. Uncle Shug found a nice pair of pants doing that one time.

How am I doing? Well pretty good. I think that I might be at a proverbial four way stop myself whatever that means but I won’t burden you to come help me with directions. I do not want to bother you by asking you for too much but I thought I might quiz you a bit about some of the stuff you might have in surplus and might not need. Since you do not plan to register any more cattle, I got to thinking that you must have a whole lot of EPD’s that you will not be using. I guess Mike Keeney could tell me how many drawers full of EPD’s you have there in your office but I hate to bother him since he is working on his A Models for the spring sale. Those were some pretty good Fords according to the old folks. And I hope that you have not already had a yard sale and sold your EPD’s in box lot or grab bags. That would mess up my plans.

Anyhow, back to those EPD’s. They are handy to have around when cow folks come by looking for a great deal on the farm. You probably already know this but my cousin Homer says that having the EPD’s of a cow is kind-a-like looking under the hood of a car to see if there are any oil leaks, you know? I just thought that if you had some that I could get from you, even if they show a little wear, they might do me good. And you never know how this cow business will go and I might venture out into something bigger. Now, just for me, I can use some medium tall EPD’s with a black hide and I’d rather have more cow ones than bull ones but I really need to let you decide what you have to spare.

If I get into one of these sales club or something bigger, I might ought to think about where I would be selling cows. Tom seemed to think that you had seen his Aberdeen and he really wanted it back. If you have any Aberdeen EPD’s I would not mind having one or two of them and maybe Tom and I could work out a deal. And then I hear that there are some cow folks that are good progressive, good salt of the earth, good commercial, good neighbor cattlemen out there in Iowa or somewhere west of Georgia. I’d need some EPD’s that are about 2” taller and maybe 500 pounds heavier to be able to muster up a phone call with them. But if I go big…, I mean small, and try to work into the CO market, I can used some EPD’s on post-it notes as long as they do not have any fly specks on them.

Well, let me let you go. The wife and them youngens of our’n say that they want to head toward Walmarks 'cause it grocery day. You know what that's like. Do what you can and if you have any of the EPD’s with only 3 legs, just put them back in that drawer. That would be a tough one to sell, especially trying to sell halves of freezer beef. It might be hard to know which leg was missing until you got it dressed out if it had much hair. Take care.

Your friend as always,

Eddie

good stuff, Mr. Ed


Got a little caught up in the hoopla, forgot to thank LL for answering, so thanks

Larry has fell out of contact with us for a day or so... He checked in via landlines this AM to let us know his TV and internet connection are temporarily out...He`ll probably need to sell one of the 904 females checked pregnant last week, and get his bill paid ahead of time to prevent any future loss of communication like this
Dennis, this ole cattle breeding moves so fast, one of us disconnected souls might turn out the wrong bull in our leader`s absence
I was working on putting all of Larry`s post into one long blog, when I got to laughing too much at all our tribulations, and clicked the wrong button...so, a project for tonight...
I`m outa here; it`s 61 degrees in KY, and there are some advantages to short winter pastures...you can find golf balls in them

Like cattle breeding, golf is a game you cannot win...all you can do is play...paraphrased from The Legend of Bagger Vance

You can send some of your golf weather up here anytime soon - looking to be sub -30C tonight Send the warmth but keep the game - despite coming from the home of golf I'm among the number of Scots who consider golf "a good walk, wasted"

Grassfarmer wrote:

You can send some of your golf weather up here anytime soon - looking to be sub -30C tonight Send the warmth but keep the game - despite coming from the home of golf I'm among the number of Scots who consider golf "a good walk, wasted"

I can understand that...especially among those who prefer to walk the shortest distance between two points
It would be a dream come true to walk St. Andrews, let alone play...ever been there?

MKeeney wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

You can send some of your golf weather up here anytime soon - looking to be sub -30C tonight Send the warmth but keep the game - despite coming from the home of golf I'm among the number of Scots who consider golf "a good walk, wasted"

I can understand that...especially among those who prefer to walk the shortest distance between two points
It would be a dream come true to walk St. Andrews, let alone play...ever been there?

My brother lives there - hates the invasion that happens any time a major tournament is on and tries to be away traveling if he can. If you ever need accommodation there...

Enjoying a little R & R, I noticed Mr. Rattler has slithered back from the 4.9pointBarY ranch to the shelter of his den to watch the VM Cowboys battle the CVD Kitty Cats on the internet superbowl of ideology....or would that be idiocy. Bootheel's experiences in Shantyville surely win him the right to furnish the concessions for the Cats and I'm sure Eddie M will be glad to furnish the Cowboys with a half beef he finally bought from my surplus 3 legged registered inbreds who didn't lose their EPD (extra prime dining). I've witnessed one of those cowboys eat 32 ounce rare steaks including the bone in one sitting looking for more, a quarter beef wouldn't be nearly enough. Mr. Rattler told me he's hoping for a quick Cowboy victory over the Cats so he can feast on Bootheel's leftover rodents.

While OT is battling all the snow trying to keep things clear, Mike's got his protective wife all heated up ready to whip some ass. Apparently, Linda raised the temperatures to 61 degrees in KY and Mike got to laughing too much at all our tribulltations, that he clicked the wrong buttons. So Mike says he's outa here, likes short winter pastures so he can find golf balls while OT must use orange ones to play on his cement hard snow. In appreciation for services rendered, I do think Mike ought to send OT one of those Swiss St Bernard caddies who carry those flasks around their necks. And I do want to thank Eddie M, I used his money to pay my internet bill and also to Mike and Joe for paying my Beartooth Cooperative electric bills at Red Lodge.....just to keep their Linda's happy.... I didn't need to ask why Joe and Mike preferred Bordens milk from contented cows with fruit for their cold morning cereal.... Joe does all the morning cooking for Mike and I also understand why Joe is Dennis's barometer.

Now Mike concedes that "Like cattle breeding, golf is a game you cannot win...all you can do is play". I think Mike is mistaken about golf being a game you cannot win, only play, since Tiger can attest to both winning and what you cannot also do or eventually you pay the piper. I am familiar with how Mike can't seem to distinguish his work from his play and so he carries his rattles with him wherever he goes, kinda his security blanket. I once changed him into an owl but like our cattle, despite my best efforts he reverted to his former self. My guess for this is that he thought his inbreeding levels were negating any progress. His owlishness tried to persuade him that this did not mean he was not making progress, it was being built in but not being realized visually, that anyone purchasing his cattle would gain the full value of his progress.....that it makes some sense that inbreeding depression is just that and depresses recordable progress. Well, Mike told me he learned common sense ain't too common and claims his sense of humor is just common sense dancing, that conviction is worthless unless it is converted into conduct.....So Mike began playing with his ABC building blocks, we're still working on his conduct

Mike and I love learning from everyones mistakes since we can't possibly live long enough to make them all by ourselves.....we have made more than our fair share so we're keeping some of them a secret to even the playing field. We do need two lives, one to make all the mistakes and the second to profit from them, so we have formed this relationship where I make 'em and he profits from 'em. I wouldn't want to rob R V of the thrill of self-discovery if I told him about any disadvantages of Viking, rather I'm suggesting he form a harmonious relationship with Mike like I have and it'll all work out OK.

While I've been told imagination is the workshop of the mind, Churchill said a pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. I laugh thinking how all my difficulties must offer me so many opportunities.... if only I could be an optimist with perserverant persistence. I think I was granted that wish back when Mr. Lingle said " I find the most important influences were the lasting impressions made on me by an unselfish and saintly mother and a good and dedicated father. If I had not received their early training and the inspiration of their example to deal with others as I would be dealt with, and to do as good a job as my powers allowed, I would never have been trusted with such good land, cattle, and people as has been my privilege." Mike claims the only rule needed on KC is the golden rule..... do unto others what they do unto you

Mike and I can spend hours laughing at all the silly things we do so if my babbling sounds confusing, it is because it's challenging to be outside the registered mainstream.....kinda like Patb's standard "If a bull is worth using he is worth testing for genetic challenges". Challenges are looking through the latest Montana Angus News, a landmark state for performance, wherein it exemplifies what Dennis describes as the ancient era of "illusionistic bovine promotional aggrandizement". More big words, I just call it the land of milk and honey, where there are over 60 glossy pages of the upcoming sales with pretty pictures of all the bulls with their superlative growth and carcass EPD....An envious ole man like me can get as jealous as when I look through Playboy reading about 85 yr ole Hugh marrying another gorgeous 23 yr old chick. Mike is alot like Hugh, his work is his play.... Linda don't know

Fantasy can always be better than reality. In cattle breeding we usually do whatever we can afford to do, but I have never seen anyone with money want to waste it in a business, rather they want to invest it to make more. It is obvious why none of the bulls promoted in the MT Angus News advertise the $EN requirements of their daughters, nor their stayability .... the ancient era of the registered mainstream is strictly an output oriented society with lots of egoism. My guess is that it took Dennis over 20 years to learn that he wants to be "...part of a new movement in the cattle industry to separate from the ancient history most bovine breeders are still in, including the so-called grass/pud/dud breeders. A revolution has begun. It's happening right here, right now. The thesis is being written and the manifesto is forming."

Dennis can be mad dog mean or as gentle as Ivory soap.....A revolution sounds harsh but I do detect a quiet undergrowth of resistance to being lemmings of the mainstream. I did say as the genes wage their invisible battles from our selection, I decided I am not going to get involved in those visible battles going on with registered multipliers, public or private. I've always preferred volunteer armies and I sincerely appreciate Dennis and Mike's support, especially for bringing forth the definition of MANIFESTO and my previous statement.
: a written statement declaring publicly the intentions, motives, or views of its issuer

a primary point to contribute to the manifesto...

Nothing new, the history of the registered Angus breed has always been about trophys, awards, contests and self-acclamations unto itself which actually increases beef production costs. I have never figured out how boasting about how much their sales bring, listing their top sellers etc, helps the commercial producers improve their bottom line.

When we get serious about the self-responsibility of this business where we reap what we sow, a new movement to separate itself from the ancient history must be careful to not bring some of the old habits with it. I worried somewhat when Mike publicly posted the complete pedigree of #13472009. For obvious reasons, my own herd records have been proprietary since 2003, I can't imagine why breeders want to publicly expose all their dependence on others. For many reasons, the registered industry is basically untrusting and has insisted on many kinds of verifiable credibility forms and measures. We measure the parents, then the progeny after the fact. We use terms like progeny proven without regard to distribution. We measure individual metabolic efficiency without regard to efficient production. Someone posted we measure more and more to net less and less. We live in an era where we're strangled by regulations to protect us from ourselves. I do like the phrase that humor is just common sense dancing.

For some reason I feel very comfortable looking at pictures like OT recently displayed as compared to those in the Montana Angus News, and I felt very comfortable with the picture of the young bull in his working clothes that I received from Leroy Thorstadt in this mornings email out the cow that Craig liked so well.....not aggrandized.....good word Dennis, I did have to look it up in the dictionary to see if it was a real word

No illusion in this photo.

The owner left MN winter for NZ summer this morning..that should be nice timing, and I hope he can send us many pictures from his trip while down under; especially Mr. Falloons cattle...

The bull appears very similar to my 41/97 bull when he was a year or two younger and presume that he is another 41/97 son. Is it still okay to ask about breeding/ancestry of a bull? I am still trying to get better at the type to type breeding. Since 41/97 has more linebreeding than most American angus and he is an outcross to our cattle, would the first generation progeny be more consistent in type and performance?

R V wrote:

The bull appears very similar to my 41/97 bull when he was a year or two younger and presume that he is another 41/97 son. Is it still okay to ask about breeding/ancestry of a bull? I am still trying to get better at the type to type breeding. Since 41/97 has more linebreeding than most American angus and he is an outcross to our cattle, would the first generation progeny be more consistent in type and performance?

let me consult The Manifesto and get back to you Ron

oooookkkk, he is not a 41/97...but I would sell you a 41/97, with Viking in the pedigree twice, and he`s already half way to your place

MKeeney wrote:

R V wrote:

The bull appears very similar to my 41/97 bull when he was a year or two younger and presume that he is another 41/97 son. Is it still okay to ask about breeding/ancestry of a bull? I am still trying to get better at the type to type breeding. Since 41/97 has more linebreeding than most American angus and he is an outcross to our cattle, would the first generation progeny be more consistent in type and performance?

let me consult The Manifesto and get back to you Ron

oooookkkk, he is not a 41/97...but I would sell you a 41/97, with Viking in the pedigree twice, and he`s already half way to your place

Darn, now I am more curious about the pedigree and I wish I had a picture of my bull when he was a year or two younger. Maybe it is just "the pose in his working clothes," but the two dimensional view is eerily similar. Maybe they are a lot alike in type and breeding and maybe very little, but I suspect the type is similar and that is a concept that I am having a hard time getting down.

I actually do need a bull and would be interested in your bull.

R V wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

R V wrote:

The bull appears very similar to my 41/97 bull when he was a year or two younger and presume that he is another 41/97 son. Is it still okay to ask about breeding/ancestry of a bull? I am still trying to get better at the type to type breeding. Since 41/97 has more linebreeding than most American angus and he is an outcross to our cattle, would the first generation progeny be more consistent in type and performance?

let me consult The Manifesto and get back to you Ron

oooookkkk, he is not a 41/97...but I would sell you a 41/97, with Viking in the pedigree twice, and he`s already half way to your place

Darn, now I am more curious about the pedigree and I wish I had a picture of my bull when he was a year or two younger. Maybe it is just "the pose in his working clothes," but the two dimensional view is eerily similar. Maybe they are a lot alike in type and breeding and maybe very little, but I suspect the type is similar and that is a concept that I am having a hard time getting down.

I actually do need a bull and would be interested in your bull.

FROM LL...
In this business I am constantly reminded of the Charles Mingus quote - "Making the simple complicated is commonplace, Making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, That's creativity." R V, I cannot thank you enough for saying "the two dimensional view is eerily similar", in gratitude a KISS from the manifesto for helping me make a point.
I was reminded of a childhood riddle of what is black and white and red all over.....add the letter 'a' in "read" and the answer was a newspaper. Additive and subtractive genes....we seem to favor making the simple complicated but I think about how we all tend to ignore the simple basic guideline of the Manifesto - "form follows functional selection" whether it is a 41/97 or a multi-sired Shoshone.

Whether our cattle are red, black, white or blue, this simple universal guideline eventually always holds true with or without pedigrees, measures or DNA. I really don't know how to explain any clearer how when our cattle breed true to their look, there is a commonality of that functional form as it becomes more prepotent or predominent irregardless of origin. But it seems the mainstream is never satisfied with a single prepotent form. I am reminded of that picture I submitted of that long line of dogs waiting to pee on a single tree, which one is the best dog for me. Some science people have told us about 98% of our human DNA is the same as chimpanzees and have told us there are very few genes involved in what makes a dog into a Collie or a Spaniel.....or from a dwarf to a giant....and so RV, if we can increase or decrease the frequencies of a type via selection, I am wondering why you would have a hard time with a type to type concept.

In my simple mind then, it seems to me that we must want a type to do more than it can consistently do at one time. Everyone seems to be searching for a simple quick black and white answer. So I am enjoying the discussions of Jbob's dilemma on "riddle me this" regarding his outlier bull....will he be or is he not to be,that is the question. While Bootheel and Jack are free at last from the circular whims, I particularly enjoyed Patb's post of the AAA's long range plan survey, they must be as confused as the rest of us looking for direction.....but my all time favorite topic thus far is Taylor Orr's solution to Angusology to better enjoy his retirement years.

So as we swing and sway to the music of Danny Kaye, perhaps some lyrics of Ma for prolific reproduction and Pa for more precise production could be written to make for a romantic harmonius duo to produce better children.....I'm thinking about searching the internet on Facebook or E Harmony.com to find the perfect match. While Taylor feels like we're kickin a dead horse, Mike is an optimist practicing resurrection.

Mike's topic on "Inbred Selection" offers some excellent examples of the resurrection to a better place.....and population genetics. I hope the parallel genetic principles of cattle and corn as examples will help clarify the manifesto in addition to the ones with pigs, chickens, fish and sugarbeet seed. This is not just about increasing production, or measuring and marketing of parent stock, it is all about fixing types to improve both the efficiency and quantity/quality of hybrid production.....to gain more from less over time. And yes, that requires a lot of time and patient persistent dedication which we all seem to lack. But surely it is a worthwhile and possible direction one step at a time......Mike and I see our glasses as half full, not half empty. For those who cannot accept the concept, it is kickin a dead horse....but for those who do, they know their horses are just napping saving their energy for the big race in the survival of the fittest....what we lack are some trainers