Reflections from LL ©

These are calf feds that are shortfed on average I think 95 days. The Black cattle are at least 50% Shoshone, The colored cattle are probably Shoshone cows and Eaton Bulls. The cattle that are in the yellow are called target, the cattle in the middle are in bullseye. What is interesting is that the colored cattle will average about 75 dollars per hd more on this formula. The thing that is not seen is that the factory at home has to run on low cost fuel and produce every 12 months.

Bob,
if I remember correctly, you just bought 30 Shoshone bulls out of the pens I looked through at Thanksgiving time...by all adjectives known to the English language, I find sorting the bulls difficult...no epd,no weights, no sires, no ibc, ...so what is your selection procedure?

MKeeney wrote:

Bob,
if I remember correctly, you just bought 30 Shoshone bulls out of the pens I looked through at Thanksgiving time...by all adjectives known to the English language, I find sorting the bulls difficult...no epd,no weights, no sires, no ibc, ...so what is your selection procedure?

Why would there be any sort? You might cut back any with a poor disposition or structure issues, but there should be no reason to sort. Are commercial cattlemen buying a program or buying a bull(s)?

MKeeney wrote:

First, they show me the type a working cattle ranch prefers for commercial economic reasons; not university or registered BS...second, they tell me that when cattle breed like they look, you don`t need EPD`s...Thirdly, they tell me that rangeability is a more a learned trait than a genetic trait contrary to the low input bs guru`s...that oughta hold you for today

Would the type be a little different if it was spring or summer with better feed? Would the eyes have to adjust to accomodate body condition that may be apparent at a different time of year?

The reason that we go to Larrys to buy bulls is for the yellow tag genotype. Dennis is absolutly right about selecting for structure soundness. We actualy only need 5 or 6 bulls for our self and have several other ranchers that will end up with the remainder and we will buy or try to buy back their calves. We have a cattle trading company also and my clients like the calves out of these bulls but don't really understand the whole concept so I try to choose a little blue sky in size to help them . The truth that I know, is that I am not smart enough to pick the future bull but if we pick from a closely related population of Cattle that are functional and mate them to a closely related proven population with the help of natural selection we won't make enough mistakes to effect our bottom line negetivly.

We know that when we use Shoshone bulls that we don't lose much weight on the males compared to crossbred sibs. Where you lose lbs is in females which is exactly what we want for cows. We currently market all of our personal cattle with Country Natural Beef a coop. We do this because we are able to have a stable market for our cattle. We send a few black heifers thru this program and they can be 130 lbs less carcass weight than the average of the rest of their sibs.
will visit later
bob

When Mr. Clark encouraged Larry that Tru-Line was a good idea, but told him that first he would have to educate buyers by demonstrating the concept, I wonder if something like these pictures was what he had in mind....

Mike,
Here are some more photos of the 2010 calf crop. The black cattle are full sibs' to our cow herd. The colored calves are all sired by Eaton. The oldest calf in pictures could be 12 months. This is the second sort on 900 calves the first sort went at 11months with 190 hd leaving there are 128 in this sort. These two groups weighed 860 net leaving. These cattle will only be fed 95 days and harvested to get the carcass information like I sent you.
The interesting thing is that they were propagated with a pure genotype in mind the only number game we used was for Lee Eaton to make sure that the Charolais Bulls had 90lb or less birth weight and good rib eye
Bob

Bob H, Thank you so much for your contributions to the Shoshone/Tru-line thread. It lays it out in the clearest of terms and makes the numbers game look like ancient history. Like Larry has always said, "Breeding cattle is pretty simple,but deciding what kind of cattle to breed is often most peoples problem." or something to that effect.

MKeeney wrote:

Keeping in mind the co-op feeds to be low choice/high select to be a leaner product



couldn`t get this posted in complete form Bob...but the basics are here...amazed at the backfat and grade

Could I get a little more explanation on the grid shown here? It seems the target specs would be 12.5 - 13.5 rib eye,
0.2 back fat, yield grade 2 or 3 and grading C or SE. A few things I don't follow - why was the first animal listed at by far
the highest price? also the other high priced one was SE+DC what does that mean? Doh! it occurs to me now that these are discounts not bonuses - for a dark cutter and animal with too small ribeye? So what does the YG1 mean - poorer yielding but still with a larger ribeye? I'm familiar with the conformation and fat cover grids they used in Europe but have never had anything graded in Canada so feeling kind of out of the loop here.

Our grid is a little bit complicated but here goes it;
The first payment is called a placement bonus dec, jan , feb are hard to get cattle so they are the highest at 100 dollars per head, then mar, april are 80$; may, june 60$; july aug sept 40$; oct 60$; Nov80$, this goes to all cattle placed.

The next payment (target) is when harvested; when these cattle went thru it was for 130$ per hundred weight of carcass on the cattle that have 11.7 ribeye. carcasses from 600lbs to 830 lbs , no higher than yield grade 3 ,select plus or better.

The cattle that make the target of the Coop get an additional 20$ per carcass hunderdweight bonus. The average for this bonus on 45,000 cattle is between 90 to 92% depending on the year. The interesting thing about our no number cattle is they are between 94 to 96 % target.

(Dark cutter, yeild grade 4, to small or large carcasses, to small rybeye all get sold into commodity market at that weeks price.)

The next payment is for the cattle that hit bullseye; those are cattle that primaraly have a larger ribeye but not to big 12.5 to 13.5 and not to much backfat they receive 8$ per hundredweight of carcass. About 35% of all cattle hit this, again we are somewhere in the 50% range.

There is one more payment that is year end (this year) it came to 65$ per head fabbed. This is fairly long winded but to sum it back to a yearling weighing 800lbs last year the coop average was $1.07 or $856 per head. Our acutaul was $1.12 @ 800lbs or $896 per hd. well within the top 10% of 45000 cattle. That said we think that we don't need any more numbers to buy bulls.

Bob

"Maybe being satisfied with good is good enough" by Larry Leonhart

YG 1, mostly meat, not much fat
YG 4, is about 40% more fat than YG1
Bob

Bob H, welcome aboard, thanks for the useful participation.......I quit studying the grid work too hard, as for me there was usually an equal cost with the gain.

MKeeney wrote:

When Mr. Clark encouraged Larry that Tru-Line was a good idea, but told him that first he would have to educate buyers by demonstrating the concept, I wonder if something like these pictures was what he had in mind....

Mike,
Here are some more photos of the 2010 calf crop. The black cattle are full sibs' to our cow herd. The colored calves are all sired by Eaton. The oldest calf in pictures could be 12 months. This is the second sort on 900 calves the first sort went at 11months with 190 hd leaving there are 128 in this sort. These two groups weighed 860 net leaving. These cattle will only be fed 95 days and harvested to get the carcass information like I sent you.
The interesting thing is that they were propagated with a pure genotype in mind the only number game we used was for Lee Eaton to make sure that the Charolais Bulls had 90lb or less birth weight and good rib eye
Bob

Bob,
raising calves like this every year; you must be spending a boatload of money on top bulls...$5000 to $10,000 range?

Bootheel I agree
These are the results we recieved from Country Natulral Beef coop using our normal holistic approach to using sunlight and water to make a living in the desert of southern Idaho. With the use of Shosone genetics for maternal and Eaton genetics as the terminal.

Mike I was raised by a real conservitive English X Scotchman We average about $2000 to $2300 because of Cattle breeders that understand the economics of the commercial industry. Leonhart and Eaton's

Bob H wrote:

Bootheel I agree
These are the results we recieved from Country Natulral Beef coop using our normal holistic approach to using sunlight and water to make a living in the desert of southern Idaho. With the use of Shosone genetics for maternal and Eaton genetics as the terminal.

Mike I was raised by a real conservitive English X Scotchman We average about $2000 to $2300 because of Cattle breeders that understand the economics of the commercial industry. Leonhart and Eaton's

oh my goodness, and save how many thousands a year on bull purchases???...of course, you gotta give up something...here are your Shoshone heifers being feedlot fed ...barren big feedlot though

Bob H wrote:

Bootheel I agree
These are the results we recieved from Country Natulral Beef coop using our normal holistic approach to using sunlight and water to make a living in the desert of southern Idaho. With the use of Shosone genetics for maternal and Eaton genetics as the terminal.

Mike I was raised by a real conservitive English X Scotchman We average about $2000 to $2300 because of Cattle breeders that understand the economics of the commercial industry. Leonhart and Eaton's

The spendthrift influence must come from the English side of the family

[LEFT]Following the advice of an expert...by LL

Mike wrote:

Don’t tell me cattle breeding isn’t like a religion; it is to the cattle breeder who determines value by genetic
accomplishment ...it's only a business model to the marketer who measures his success with money...
I practice resurrection with every newborn calf, and Larry’s writing above is like an altar call to a promised land that I can
finally see...the fact I don’t have time to get there is a good reason to start the journey sooner...the trip requires no great
sacrifice; there’s beef aplenty to eat along the way... .......if you don’t get conned, you don’t have to con...

When I contemplate breeding directions, any genetic accomplishment is measured by the success we have in organizing
genes that are already here for mankind’s benefit or detriment. During our journey to establish some genetic order out of
the chaos, I doubt the promised land that Mike sees has streets paved with gold leading to St. Anthony, ND, it's likely a place
more like Lead, SD where inhabitants adapt to make the best out of what they have, just enjoying the more important things
in life where they can "eat, drink, and be merry" despite their surroundings.




We hear lots of talk about environmental adaptability, ecological balance and performance. The Arctic polar bears and the
Antarctica penguins each live in their own opposite yet similar worlds, places to visit but most of us wouldn't want to live there.....
we have all the space in between left for the rest of us to find a place to enjoy our lives. . Rather than be born again in order
to reach a promised land, in the cattle world our choices seem more like the different political philosophies.... the loud and boisterous
extreme radicals on both the left and right with their opposing polar views in an endless tug of war, each trying to attract the silent
majority.

Yesterday we received six inches of more new snow out of the north and this morning it's been snowing from the south, here we
sit in the middle catching hell from both directions, but the opposite winds must have reached a balance this afternoon cause now
it's snowing dollar sized flakes peacefully falling straight down......I wish I had a camera to substantiate that pictures do not lie.....looking
out my window it is gorgeous if you're not a cow in weather that's neither fit for man nor beast.

Competition is a relentless adversary and people who make their living in grass roots agriculture are some of the more
independent creatures. To lighten our load in the breeding cattle world, there is nothing more humorous than reflecting back on all
the crazy things people have done and continue to do.....and I don't know of anyone with crazier humor available today than the flock of
coo-coo birds that hang out online canoodling at Keeney's Corner. The rest of the birds in this big wide wonderful world enjoy
the thrill of riding on things that spin around the faster they go and chasing things that are different or unique. I suppose there are
at least a couple hundred different kinds of cattle from musk ox to wilderbeasts that hobbyists and clowns have mixed and matched
with an abundance of marketing schemes. Breeding cattle is but one of the many things people do that truly creates another con artist's
many promised lands.

When we reach a more serious state of mind, we all know that criticism seldom solves problems but when Mike says "if
you don’t get conned, you don’t have to con", sometimes it is necessary to call a spade a spade by exposing some of the
shenanigans that go on in the cattle business. And we all should know that practical beef production is an entirely different proposition
than the opposite glittering excitement of the radical registered segment with their exorbitant monetary values and related fanfare.
My feeble efforts here are to disconnect the two so we can each go our separate ways without hindrance to one another, a difficult
proposition since the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.




Cons spinning yarn into gold reminds me of Bill O'Reilly's no spin zone.....during his pre-super bowl interview with President Obama,
as a news reporter he asked what he could do better in his job, and Obama replied "to just tell the truth".....inferring that so often
the whole truth is not known which leads to premature distorted views......and Rumsfeld has just written a book entitled the
"Known and Unknown" to provide the rest of the story. Reporters do like to be the first to report a breaking story without knowing
the whole story. To be first in something has always been a human condition that is considered an accomplishment with great
acclamation and rewards.

In cattle breeding, I have referred to the visible and how the invisible is the rest of story that comes later. Just telling the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth to seek justice while purveying breeding animals might be construed as being
a first....but this first would likely be without great acclamation and rewards . Some things in life never change - cows may come
and cows may go but the bull in the cow business goes on forever. During my searches for nothing but the whole truth to
justify my breeding directions, I found it interesting how man's obsession with time is reflected in our selection methodology
measuring things by speed, quantity and distances. In racing, Tesio mixed different specific formulations of stayers and sprinters
to be successful in breeding horses to win races for different distances while Budweiser bred big strong horses to pull beer wagons.

Different horses for different purposes....In cattle breeding today, most of us would like our cows to be stayers and yet produce
sprinters who reach a given endpoint with the greatest speed on the least amount of energy.....huuummmm, just thinking out loud
to do this with one type of animal would be like magically turning salt into sugar. While both salt and sugar look alike, I laugh
imagining all the underlying messages from the phrase "pouring salt in the wound" to add more pain while factual research has
shown that coating a wound with sugar will help heal it faster......we do alot of mislabeling in the cattle business selling sugar and
spice and everything nice to heal our wounds faster while adding more salt to the wounds.

So in the cattle breeding world rather than developing formulated recipes for success in beef production, the search goes on for
"heavenly" miracles "hell" bent for leather racing in our progressive directions. Academia and breeders promote the mixing of
sprinters to win these races in our "pursuits of progress" with little regard for long distances. Quickly running out of high octane fuel,
we build bigger fuel tanks with more capacity. Stayability or continuity is out of fashion, speed is in fashion during these relay races,
the marathon racers require more endurance. Science has even developed across breed EPD to help us increase our speed by mixing
all these measured parts.....we've even found new names to identify these superior mongrelized thoroughbreds calling them purebreds
with more predictable EPD averages with little regard to the distance between those averages.

Doing what we do, Mike says he has grown weary of sorting through these mazes of progress, that he has practiced resurrection
with every newborn calf and finally sees the light at the end of the tunnel that leads to a promised land.....knowing Mike it's likely a less
crowded place where he can enjoy a more leisurely and relaxing place or pace playing golf while his cow's do all the work.
Since we can't cross turtles with rabbits, the limitations of natural law mandates that we must make choices. Sticking his head
out of his shell, Mike saw how we all have different priorities in life but the primary common choice among pack rats seems to be
accumulating self wealth taking things from others.

Mike and I have reached the age where we are worried more about our health than wealth so we chose to breed some stayers
for more endurance. Mike calls these more functionally athletic, marathon type cattle with longevity timesavers......I
call them timesaviours.....ones that save us from danger or destruction. So when Mike said "Don’t tell
me cattle breeding isn’t like a religion", I figure timesaviours would also allow me to have a lot more time to spread the gospel
of my philosophical ramblings describing our promised land.

A couple of other innovative and more charitable pragmatics like Dr. Voss and Dr. McNamee have opened a FREE RBPS clinic
donating their newly found spare time just to support the needy....no dues, rules or membership like AAA, its more like the
anonymity of AA. Having been there and suffered from the addictions of modern progress, Dr. McNamee is breeding a herd
of timesaviours as functionally self-sufficient as Dr. Voss's 1500 pronghorn antelope; who must either win in their race for life on
their own or perish. Being Irish, I doubt Dr. McNamee is a leprechaun hiding his treasures nor related to Dr. Kevorkian since Jack
is trying to prolong the life of his pronghorn type cattle in his treeless western arid region. Dr. Voss attributes much of his
doctorate to studying both his pronghorns and longhorns so I doubt neither one of these doctors are related to
Dr. Hitler's SS (scientific society) who's ambitious objectives are to develop a super race to rule the world.....surely we need
some timesaviours to save us from danger or destruction.

On the other hand, science uses DNA to study the origins of the surviving species, they worry alot about extinction if we lose
variation and describes evolutionary change as mutations. Some people have tried to breed beefalos, others have decided to
breed deer and buffalo and science is worried that some of these more domesticated registered and DNA'd animals will escape
and intermix with the wild ones causing ecological chaos. Ecology, Natural, Bio-Tech.....on the one hand science is promoting
variation and on the other trying to prevent it.....lots of different opinions on these subjects to consider trying to make
better choices.

So Mike says - Talk is easy; talk sells and improves nothing...applying the principles is the difficult and quiet work...
the Work has begun......A rather sobering search result for "when all’s been said, and nothing done"...."what
has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Nothing new under the sun going round and
round sounds disparaging. In our philosophies of life, we worry alot about what others do and Mother Shoshone worries too
about her survival but has consoled me that her Mother will take care of all our worries and concerns over time and that there
is no greater sacrifice than for one to give up their life for another. Not wanting to hear any part of how bigger fish eat littler fish,
the "rather sobering search result when all's been said" is that it is a sacrificial world where everything lives
off something else. Being at the top of the food chain, man's biggest enemy is himself and the smallest things he cannot see
with the naked eye.

So, now that I've identified all the problems in the world, when we have to choose between what we can and cannot have or do,
it presents dilemmas measuring things by dollars. Some men choose to walk with wolves down paths filled with danger or
destruction while Dennis rides his Longhorn steer enjoying the serenity he sees among his cows. If all's been said and nothing done,
my refuge is when I walk my talk from what my cows tell me. My one regret is that there wasn't a RBPS clinic available when
I needed it. I needed someone to convince me that breeding cattle for a more contented and efficient way of transformating
energy to human food is distinctly different than breeding cattle to win races. As I muddle through all my thoughts, the need
for therapy is readily apparent.

Cow therapy helped me recognize why I have been so stupid for so long thinking winning races was beef improvement when in
actuality it is a burden beef producers must overcome. Being a grass roots farmer all my life, I should've known better. I am
grateful that I couldn't afford to get a PHD in animal breeding. I would have been even more handicapped by the traditional
brainwashing process which started with my 4-H extension leader and a Chester White gilt when I was 9 years old. I was
49 years old before I began the cleansing process away from traditional mindsets. Spending 20 years in rehab, I was 69 years
old when I was finally released, cured and free from the shackles of all the traditonal bullcrap that clogs the beef pipelines.
Not many of you know how difficult it was to spend those 20 years in rehab trying to design a stainless steel beef pipeline that
fits together to flow more smoothly....nor the last 7 years looking for investors with the materials available in order to construct it.
The longer I go, the more I smoke, and where there's smoke, there's fire to keep burning the Kentucky tobacco..

The primary difficulty in all this is that the mainstream RB's seem to believe in the trickle down theory, starting at the top
and working backwards where going downhill is more profitable and easier for them. Qualified engineers know a house with a
poor foundation will crumble, that the strength of anything is in the foundation. The foundation of the beef industry is the working
cow herds and my cows have told me the trickle up theory would be better beginning with a stronger foundation in harmony with
nature. We don't hear much about harmony in this business but we hear a lot about applying selection pressures....increasing
stress and pressure on the foundation until it implodes. I have to laugh reminded of when someone from FL recently told me
he put so much selection pressure on fertility, he didn't have those troubles anymore, they're extinct.....true story.

Having been a lemming chasing sprinters to win races, disappointed and weary from all the hyperbole and pressures, being wimpy
and simple-minded, I just couldn't take it anymore. Without doubt, I believe reproduction and longevity are the most important
economic traits. So, when I decided that I needed some stayers to reduce stress for my own well being as well as my cattle, trying
to regain some sanity from the insanities of the world, much to my chagrin I found it to be a lonely place, kinda like
Mike's promised land.

Always questioning my sanity for breeding more contented ordinary cattle for ordinary more contented people, with no therapist
to talk to, I've discussed some of my mental problems with Mother Shoshone for reassurance,.someone who has no self-created
delusions of grandeur.....just doing the best of what she can while she can. Mother Shoshone is of a universal faith who believes in
being fruitful to feed the multitudes. In memoriam, I'll just introduce one of my many therapeutic aids over the years as MS, sold
for slaughter at age 19..... snapped a picture of her for this obituary while she was answering one of my questions I posed to her
a dozen years ago - her kind......and kind spirit live on through her descendants and relatives.

MS 1991 - 2010



On that one summer day leisurely walking through my pastures, the first question I asked her was, "Why did she seem so content
while I still remained so discontented ?". MS responded, "Well, it's all attitude sonny, why shouldn't I be content,
what more could I want? I'm just a cow enjoying life, look at all this grass around me, I have more than enough to eat, I am a
very healthy, wealthy and a wiser cow after ten years..... and I have a healthy, wealthy calf..... but he is not too wise yet..... see
him over there sniffing the wind trying to do what the big boys do....he's thinking how someday he wants to be king of the hill......
.Look, he's walking over here now to tell me all about where he's been, he is getting to that inquisitive stage, asking lots of questions
.....he'll wise up in time ..... "

When he stopped about 15 feet away, I snapped a picture of her approaching calf , he looked at me, then his mom, she made
a soft 'mmmmm' sound, the calf looked back at me, then ran over and started nursing. Standing there looking at MS, I hesitated
for a moment, then said to her, "I'm wondering how can you consider yourself wealthy.... you are an ordinary cow, an
extra-ordinarily nice looking ordinary cow..... but your ordinary calf isn't as big and growing as fast as some of the other calves
in this pasture." , and with a teasing smile I said, " your calf would be worth more money for me if he was the biggest, fattest
calf in the pasture."




MS looked me squarely in the eyes saying with despair, "Ahhh, now you have answered your own question
of why you remain discontented. You humans are so handicapped, you measure wealth by dollars.....cows know life is swell
when we keep well....cows measure wealth by their health .... by the good genes they and their offspring have for our
continued well-being." Raising her voice she exclaimed, "Just look at how fit my calf and I are... it is a
survival of the FITTEST you know, not the GREATEST .....we're so lucky to be so fit.

And then in a more subdued tone, MS added, "I've been around here for quite awhile looking deep into the eyes
and with my big ears listening to all your visitors walking these pastures.... my keen sense of smell can detect when something's
rotten in Denmark, she laughed, they are all confused, , always searching for what they think are the best calves, bulls or cows....
.most of your registered visitors are never satisfied,..... their priorities are out of whack as they go around handcuffed to popular
fashions whether practical or not ..... cows dressed in their ordinary working clothes suffer immensely from human egos
you know", and with a stern look, she said, "they always want us to be all primped up looking our best,
to be admirable displays for their egotism and pride of ownership ....how can we work and look like a queen sitting in her throne
all dressed up in her fancy robes......and you know more than anyone how most slavemasters can't afford to lavish us with things
that royalty can."

"Well, I certainly got your dander up", I interrupted, MS stammered, "...It... it.... it is just that humans love contests
and only idolize winners....they have these big egos..." , and then sighed, "We ordinary cows are stuck out
here in the real world having to do all the work......we can't all be queens. I know you understand that I am a work and wear kind
of cow, you see me at my best and worst, but I get as upset as you do from the expectations of most humans. And another thing,
I'm not at all attracted to the big butted, fat potted, sway back bulls that most of your visitors prefer today, they are just not my
type. If humans had to walk in my hooves, they'd soon change their minds about what's more important in life than trophies
and money. For Pete’s sake, cows never know what kind of bull their masters will bring them next".
MS paused, then added, "I suppose you won't believe this, but working mother cows will always choose a bull by his
charisma and stalwartness over some perceived new human fashion model", and she paused, then shyly looking upward
rolling her eyes, "I like my bulls in trim, athletic condition with lean muscular butts .....your visitors would learn much
if they just looked at other things in nature, how wise females choose their mates for the betterment of the species.....females have
all the power, yet you call us the weaker sex......there is nothing that gets me more upset than when us working cows are considered
to be merely incubators for so-called blue blooded royalty with fancy pedigrees.....too many males are tyrants to females, I suppose
Queen Mother made them that way to keep things in balance as they spend most of their life fighting..

I just stood there, not knowing what to say, embarrassed of my ignorance thinking back how many dollars my big high performing,
trophy winning bulls once brought me along with more problems, and now here is MS unloading all her frustrations on me. Staring
at me she said with confidence, "All animals know that eyes reveal our true intent, our feelings, even exposing deceit....
humans do not think that cows can understand, but the guilt in your eyes reflect what you're thinking. I hope you learned from
your mistakes. Cows don't waste a lot of time talking, we mostly depend on body language, I hear humans say actions always
speak louder than words. But, humans seldom practice what they preach, they're always too busy thinking about themselves to ever
stop and listen to what we cows have to say....I'm sure glad you learned to listen".

In a more sarcastic tone, she said, " We have no choice but to pass down from generation to generation human's
ruthless, merciless and demanding actions, and then they blame us for being what or who most of us are.... they pick our mates
based on their own wants, disregarding our needs.....and then they wonder why so many of us cows are open at the end of the
breeding season.....and why some of us get downright mean from all the stress."

"I know", nodding my head slowly in agreement, beginning to think this nice gentle cow really despises most humans, a fleeting
thought ran across my mind that she is sounding more like my wife who can be not so nice when she starts bitching about what
men do wrong. Quickly remembering that MS might sense what I'm thinking, I blurted out "Are you claiming cows are smarter
and wiser than humans and we should let cows pick their own mates ?"

"I'm glad you brought that up." she said, " I've been meaning to have a heart to heart talk
with you about this for a very long time....I could feel your perplexed mood today, I'm beginning to worry that you might revert
back into your old habits again. Usually you are too busy to pay any attention to me" sounding alot like my wife,
MS continued, "You seem bewildered, torn between trying to decide whether to breed us to what humans want or
what us cows need. I sensed the hour was here to have a frank discussion about what you're fretting about, especially about
PICKING OUR MATES. Queen Mother figured this out long ago. "

Nodding my head knowing she was right, I was beginning to think that what I am doing was a hopeless effort, that I would be much
better off financially picking bulls the same as everyone else in order to sell my cattle for more money.
MS continued, "I want to encourage you to stay the course. To begin with, cows are definitely wiser. I know
humans think we're just dumb animals" ..... "Most humans think they are smarter and wiser than our Queen Mother"
she scoffed, and then frowning she said, "Humans think I cannot understand their incessant criticism of me, I hear
them say I am not thick enough, not deep enough, or tall enough, or short enough, or milky enough, or grow fast enough.......
always trying to pick extreme bulls to fix what they think us ordinary cows lack.....and you, why you even inferred my calf wasn't
big enough....."

"But you don't understand - just calm down", I interrupted, now realizing why man refers to Mother Nature in the female gender.
I quickly tried to pass blame by saying, "It's actually not all our fault, it is in our human nature.....we're taught to pick the best
of the best outliers....."

"Oh, but I do understand" MS interrupted, and then said "But humans confuse best with
fittest....if outliers were Queen Mother's favorites, ask your expert cohorts why does she produce such a few of them" ,
she laughed.

"Humans often don't have time to stop and think", she added, "I've seen and heard your
frustrations when you tell your visitors that too much of anything can be as bad as too little for the good of my own well-being....
naturally, I care very much about my own well-being and even more so for those who come after me when I am gone..... I have
seen how most men just will not listen, I suspect they also have herds of discontented cows", smiling she said
" this is a common trait in males."

Hesitating for a moment, looking deep into my eyes, MS said, "Now about picking our mates, I want to remind
you of the time you mated me to your big hot shot high performing bull, how your visitors really liked my nice big daughter
I gave you from him.....they thought she was the best calf in the pasture. My goodness, I heard you tell someone she did ratio
21% more than the average of all her herdmates....how you marveled at the idea that such a mating would give me the ability
to produce one extra calf in weight every five years.....but...she never became a good mother, did she...."
"I felt so sorry for my daughter because she took after that big lummox of a dad",
laughing MS said, "there is a lesson to be learned here if only humans would listen to what we cows have to say.
Queen Mother allows you to use her magic powers but over the long term she'll have her way." Smiling, MS said,
"After all, she governs you too you know.. I suppose most humans think Queen Mother wasn't aware that my
daughter wasn't needed to replace me,..... that's why I'm so lucky she designed me to last for 15 to 20 years." Laughing,
she said, "I can guarantee that if you had sold me and kept my daughter, and kept at it.... as you already know,
Queen Mother would start handing you more troubles than you would care to deal with..... my daughter made a great sacrifice
for you and I know you appreciated it. "

"I did......OK, so you're wiser and smarter" I conceded, "but humans have a lot more pressure on them than cows do.....I didn't
know cow's were such deep and simple thinkers...I've seen them stop and take time to deliberate what choices lie ahead of them,
I thought cows were just slow minded."

MS stared at me awhile looking puzzled, then said "Well, first of all, no one is smarter than anyone else, being wise
is being smart. Arrogance is strictly a human trait, humans who think they know everything always brag . Experience has humbled
you, I knew you would listen, that you believe, but you must be prepared to talk about what I'm telling you .....and continue to learn
more about our Queen Mother's rules."

"I will....but I must go now to do other things, I certainly enjoyed talking to you and you have given me so many things to re-think .
I'll be talking to you on a regular basis".

"Thank you for listening, I hope you find the contentment that I have", MS said smiling, "I'm glad
I'm not a human.....Sayonara"

In lieu of flowers, the Shoshone Family requests that any gifts be sent to the RBPS,
in care of the Keeney Corner Foundation Trust Fund, Nancy, KY

I shall go to bed with a smile tonight. The best work yet, thanks Mr. Leonhardt.

First let me say that this is Bob's wife Pam, not him;
He went on a fishing trip with our son and hasn’t seen the recent posts. I would like to apologize in advance for stepping into these conversations if in-appropriately. (Man sanctuary?)

From a woman's perspective;
It fills my mind right now thinking over the last (15 years is it?) about conversations had between Bob and I, deep into the night, sometimes beginning at 2:00 or three in the morning discussing insights learned from our shared "Shoshone" project. In that time we have taken on a new dimension in our marriage. Forgive me for stating, but a shared passion for this line of cattle. An insight......into your passion Larry. The carry over truths into the simplicities of life. Wither learned or innate, Man has a tendency to make things so complicated, and enjoys it being so. We are uncomfortable in the peace that comes with the obvious simplicity of the truths discovered. Thereby the need to create the chaos in order to (in our minds) have something to do.

For the small amount of value and worth it has, I would like to acknowledge your insights and wisdom Larry. To Thank you! For feeling driven to share this acquired knowledge with us, me......that has to hear things time and again sometimes....before I get it.

I have an idea of your frustration, I see glimpses of it many times in Bob for those folks that "Are slow to or don't quite get it!" Don't give up on us, there are a few of us out here that are plugging along behind. We may be in the dust, but so appreciating the sweet aroma.
Pam H

I wonder if Larry knows that at 2 a.m. on any given night, there are people lying in bed thinking about him. Some might be long time friends like Bob and Pam, or Mike or Dennis, others might be anonymous admirers like me and Joe. I knew that last night at midnight when I went to let the dog out and check on my son, that I should resist the urge to check the computer. But I couldn't do it, and wouldn't you know, there was a brand new reflection from LL. (And it was a doozey) I had to read it three times before I could go to bed, and I'm not sure when I finally dozed off, but it must have been after two. Larry, thank you for taking the time to stimulate us all to think, even if it is at 2 in the morning.

Wow! What a great story Mr. Leonhardt
one of the best yet!
thanks

well, we`ve surpassed 17,000 views now so that`s pretty good...over 600 on the condensed version which some people are printing...Larry`s comments never generate much discussion...instead of the saying "when all`s been said, and nothing done" it is more of a case of "when it`s all been said correctly, there`s nothing left to say"...except thanks, which we all do...
Even I ran out of much to ask Larry this morning, but I did forget to tell him, or rather ask him about, I have printed/published an unauthorized historical book of about 100 pages titled "Shoshone...The Formative Years" So far just two copies, one for me...one for Larry...waiting authorization for a second printing

MKeeney wrote:

well, we`ve surpassed 17,000 views now so that`s pretty good...over 600 on the condensed version which some people are printing...Larry`s comments never generate much discussion...instead of the saying "when all`s been said, and nothing done" it is more of a case of "when it`s all been said correctly, there`s nothing left to say"...except thanks, which we all do...
Even I ran out of much to ask Larry this morning, but I did forget to tell him, or rather ask him about, I have printed/published an unauthorized historical book of about 100 pages titled "Shoshone...The Formative Years" So far just two copies, one for me...one for Larry...waiting authorization for a second printing

Put me on the waiting list for the book.....Larry is a class act and a great example for all 17,000 who have viewed this forum.

Breeding Philosophies

What are your breeding objectives and methods to achieve those goals?

After spending my entire winter vacation enjoying the dialogue on this forum reflecting back, when all's been said one would think I would have run out of words to say by now. Old guys repeat themselves alot but I also think alot about all the opportunities that lie ahead in the future. Though I won't be here, I have seen samples of them and so I thoroughly enjoy planting some seeds for thoughtful challenges.

On this open forum, few could disagree that it 'tis a noble objective to develop parent stock that can regularly produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns to the commercial beef industry. But few can agree on just how we might better do this, and this is good for there is more than one way in each man's own circumstances. It's no secret that I favor the ingenuity and innovativeness of independent initiatives, may the best ones prevail.

Looking for answers to this noble objective in the archives of history, what better place to begin than with Lingle's "Breed of Noble Bloods". Then I studied Barclay and Keith's thorough "History of the Aberdeen-Angus Breed"; Allen Fraser's "The Bull"; M'Combie's "Cattle and Cattle Breeders"; Wright's array of mammalian research on the "Exceedingly Simple Principles of a Successful Breeder"; Lent's biblical relationships to the "Basis of Linebreeding"; Kowerski & Peters' "Introduction to Chemical Principles"; Bonsma's "Livestock Production-Man Must Measure"; Waitley's "Seeds of Greatness"; Tesio's methods of "Breeding the Racehorse"; Lasater's "Philosophy of Cattle Raising"; McCann's "Battle of the Bull Runts"; Petersen's "Cowpunchers, Sheep Herders and Plain Pig Farmers; and many others of course topped off with Burke's "Angus Legends", all coupled together with a lifetime of observations and a gifted talent of being able to converse with cows. But my most interesting study was the sequel to Burke's......Uncle Tom's "Leprechaun Legends"....the excitement of finding their hidden treasures.....who Eddie M describes as my four-legged wandering gypsies.

Bootheel's posted wheelz of fortune further substantiates what Mike says that all's been said and nothing new under the sun is being done. While this is basically true, Mike forgot that I live in a godforsaken state that became famous for creating the horned jackalope while living adjacent to the states who create headless rabbits. For those who like prettier trophies than KY's Jennifer Lawrence, write to the Chamber of Commerce in Douglas WY and order a mounted jackalope to hang on your dorm or den walls. Hanging directly underneath mine on my former office wall, now turned into a more private den where smoking is still a freedom, there is a large framed inscription from Goethe, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."

From all my studies, being a self-proclaimed dreamer, I often dreamed of things that never were. Always interested in magic, following Goethe's advice, with the magic and power along with common sense rather than genius; from the many gifts of hidden treasures I had accumulated over time, while lacking much boldness, I did muster up enough courage to turn a dream into a reality to reach my breeding objective. I portrayed one of my first magical examples in my original Tru Line booklet.....she had the magical power to transform what many consider to be trash into money. But in a world focused on that imagery of headless rabbits, in over 30 years I have not received any comments either pro or con from the learned......or anyone else.....these non believers have lead me to believe that ignorance is bliss.....it certainly is.



So, while this example is not an impossible dream, this once pleasant dream turned into a nightmare when it comes to marketing. What is missing from my archives of history are books on marketing. For headless rabbits, marketing is the universal "gimme" game, a glorious pyramid scheme with countless employment and often enjoyment opportunities. The methods to achieve my breeding objective was deliberate in-breeding, opposed by most breeders as incestuous and damnation who believe it will produce nothing but fools. Surely, it takes one to know one, and many believe I am the biggest fool yet produced for not following the methodology of one of the biggest tom foolery's of all.

Part of my downfall in marketing has been doin' too much readin' just about breedin'. I learned that during medieval times, the choice would have fallen upon a bull with both testicles descended, masculine in appearance and nowise imperfect in his private parts, bulls who were active, freely moving and firmly set on their legs, well grown for age, eager yet controllable, out of a good cow, who comes of a good family..... those would stand the best chance of avoiding castration. This motley collection of browns and blacks, duns and fawns, piebald and skewbald, horned and polled prevailed until the need for greater order and uniformity arrived in the mid 1750's when Bakewell applied his mysterious secrets, stolen from the horse people. The game itself, however, remained Bakewell's pedigree game, "systematic principles of breeding, as opposed to the chance mating of nobody's son with everybody's daughter."

Bakewell's games prevailed until more recent modern times when this motley collection of browns and blacks, duns and fawns, piebald and skewbald, horned and polled arrived on the scene to create greater disorder and variation when science applied their modern mysterious secrets, stolen from the performance people. Replacing the pedigree games, the new numbering games prevail, a "systematic breeding of numbers reverting to the chance mating of everybody's majestic sons to everybody's majestic daughters"...those with the best numbers stand the best chance of avoiding castration. So, when all's been said, certainly nothing new under the sun is being done by choosing to live with Alice in Wonderland.

Now, I hope you all understand that why trying to help you see my methods more clearly from the calm inside of a tornado or from the eye of a hurricane is so extremely difficult. Bob H is lucky choosing to live with Pam in Idaholand who enjoys the fun and sweet aroma of the KC dust, wondering why those who live in Wanderland are never satisfied. With not much to do in Vossland when it's snowing and 30 below, they're debating the IMHO's of flies, parasites and weights as Bootheels goats are dying while eating roses in Misouriland . Young Bootheel, who enjoys disrupting 4.9 social parties, is sobering up from drinking the nectar revealed by Dr. Richy's wheelz of the fortunate, especially since yearling calves are nearing a thousand dollars a pop.... he seems to be sacrificing his goats. Being young and hostile, I thought he would like to hear that one of Dr. Richy's many missdfortunes was when he was here in the early 70's telling me about his recent trip to Europe, how great the Chianinnys were, being built like rockets for calving ease to better utilize the Simmees explosive growth.

It has been kinda amazin' to me how scientists make lots of money publishing research papers becoming experts at describing all the mistakes that they prompted us to do.... I hope Mike will make some money publishing my mistakes too.....but I think I deserve my fair share of all that mistaken revenue. I no longer wonder why life is good for Bootheel, he is the benefactor of what some of us ole guys actually had to live through during all those good ole sacrificial days.

Now I realize my dream is a little on the far side yet to be accepted, bu t I have talked to an ole guy on the other side of the world who recently told me over there "breeders are basically ignorant and they all follow each other because they are insecure....mind you, Genetics is basically a new science and there is still a lot that is unknown , the principals have not been picked up by animal breeders although sheep seem to be ahead of cattle." Eddie M will be glad to hear that since Bakewell ruined his Berkshire pigs, spoiled his Longhorn cattle but he succeeded admirably with his Longwool Leicester sheep.

Dr. Voss will also be glad to hear that the Colling brothers' improved Shorthorns drove both the improved and unimproved Longhorns from the meadow lands of England, allowing the Longhorn to develop on their own for Dennis's benefit.....those shorthorns were so improved by the 1950's, once a steer reached a 1000#, the best of them (as judged by Dr. Richy's mentors) could no longer walk, or I should have said waddle. Someone once told me that if it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck....the smartest duck I know took up marketing Aaafflaaaacccck Assurance.

But what would us ole guys know about flak anyway, we've never heard it before. Gavin recently told me he has been away and must return to Keeney's Corner to see what is going on.....and added that - "Dr Keith Gregory returned to New Zealand just a year before he died. He designed the “composite” cattle. We got together for an hour and I commented that the composites had been unsuccessful out here. He said that they were doing it all wrong, that breeders out here kept trying to stabilise the crossbred.. The other problem with that is that a percentage of the animals that you are trying to stabilise has all the worst characters and so of course your variability become absolute...... As I explained the only way that you can retain heterosis is to keep adiding the pure bred. Trying to stabilize a crossbred takes about 10 generation and in doing so you lose all the Vigor."

I wondered if Dr. Gregory and his counterparts often get confused between breeders and multipliers. So, if we must fight fire with fire, I suppose fighting nonsense with nonsense would be in order. I can understand how to fix traits to intensify a purebred's prepotency, but I don't understand how electro-magnetic fields hold all the invisible pixels of the DNA together or how soap bubbles are like the skins of cells that split and grow. And I don't understand how the gamete or meiosis process works at all. While science is spending billions trying to figure out the mind boggling creation of life, all I really have to do to improve prepotency is to apply the known principles of selection and the closest possible in-breeding of the select in establishing a separate and distinct type of functional animal.

We all should know that the only purpose of a purebred is to provide the prepotency of a selected type. One thing science cannot change is the universal law of physics. So in these modern times with this motley collection of numbered cattle, if there again becomes a need for greater order and uniformity in beef production, to regularly produce more trom less, the only progressive alternative I see is re-applying the mysterious secret power of magic, stolen from the plant world.....to produce the seedless fruit with flexibility more often at a cheaper price. But this is entirely only IMHO, to give the number people a fair shake here, I submit the following written by Dr. Scott P. Greiner, Extension Animal Scientist, VA Tech -

Expected Progeny Differences have proven to be the most effective tool for genetic improvement of beef cattle. The majority of the genetic progress within a beef herd is accomplished through sire selection, and therefore EPDs play a primary role in identifying and purchasing bulls. Advancements in science and technology have resulted in a large number of EPDs being developed for multiple traits. Producers are faced with two particular challenges as a result: 1) Which EPDs should I focus my selection on? and 2) What should be the target value of the EPDs of importance?

Once selection criteria have been established (ie. what traits do we need to improve?), benchmarks or an acceptable range of EPDs should be established for application to bull-buying For example, if the goal is to increase weaning weight of the calf crop, WW EPD would be defined as a primary EPD selection criteria for a new bull. The questions become: What WW EPD does the bull ideally need to have? Is there a minimum? or maximum? In most situations, there is likely a range in EPD values that would be considered optimum. The adage that “more is better” is often not applicable in most selection scenarios when it comes to EPDs. Higher WW EPDs would certainly achieve the goal of enhancing weaning weights; however, there may also be correlated reductions in calving ease due to higher birth weights or potential increases in mature cow size for heifers retained as replacements. Balanced trait selection is always important and defining an optimum EPD range as a benchmark is compatible with this strategy.

Defining the optimum EPD range or benchmark, however, can be challenging. Knowledge of the EPD value of former and current sires in the herd can provide valuable insight and assistance in this matter. Associating EPD values on current/former sires with the performance of their progeny can be useful to establish a benchmark from which to select future sires. In the previous example, where enhanced weaning weights was a goal, it would be advantageous to know the WW EPD values of current sires. We could then set our WW EPD goal accordingly higher. Similar examples can be applied to milk, calving ease, and carcass traits. The basic premise is that defining where we are headed genetically is much easier if we can characterize where we have been.

Breed percentile rankings are additional tools that can assist with EPD selection. It is useful to understand where a particular bull ranks within a breed for traits of interest. This ranking will give a general idea as to the genetic merit of the bull compared to others within the breed. Percentile rankings are readily available in sire summaries published by breed associations. With this information, bulls can be specifically evaluated as to where their EPDs rank relative to all animals in the breed for specific traits. The following table provides a brief summary of percentile rankings in Angus and Purebred Simmental bulls for calving ease, yearling weight, milk, and marbling EPDs. It important to note that percentile rankings do not reflect genetic differences for traits between breeds, and can be utilized on a within-breed basis. Utilizing the percentile table, it can be determined that an Angus bull with a Calving Ease EPD of +8 or higher ranks in the upper 25% of the breed for calving ease, and would be a strong candidate for use on heifers. Similarly, a Simmental bull with a milk EPD of +5 is slightly higher than the Simmental breed average for milk. These percentile rankings also illustrate practical differences between EPDs. In other words, differences of a couple of pounds of WW or YW EPD between bulls are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of selection, as examination of the percentile rankings for these differences reveal that these bulls would essentially rank identically within the breed. A two pound difference in birth weight, however, is a substantial difference.

In summary, EPDs are a powerful selection tool and establishment of herd goals and benchmarks are important for optimal utilization. Tracking performance of progeny and percentile ranks are two mechanisms that assist in the establishment of benchmarks to be applied to bull-buying decisions.

I did notice there was no reference to forms, just reaffirming here how the Xperts promotion of the numbering games prevail , and how the teachers are teaching themselves to now teach us that "more is better" is often not applicable in a "systematic breeding of numbers reverting to the chance mating of everybody's optimum sons to everybody's optimum daughters"...those with the optimum numbers stand the best chance of avoiding castration .....after 30 years of EPD, .I think they are learning ..... I think I foresee another cycle of change just over the horizon as the world turns

The choice is ours, simplicity or more compleeexxxxiiity, but in the meantime, with another noble objective I'm going to study up on marketing, beginning with the truth in lending, labeling and advertising laws relative to the purity content of "purebreds"......just wandering if there are any lawyers out there on KC who would be willing to take cases on a contingency basis.....thinkin' a little along the line of monopolies and side effects of what may be hazardous to our well-being, kinda like the tobacco lawyers.....whatt'ya think Mike, did the tobacco subsidy you got from your bull sales offset the loss you take raising tobacco....just wondering who came out ahead in that KY fiasco.....no need to thank me for smoking, like the scientists I'm always just glad to help out, especially the KY farmers and the governments as long as I can....these traditional addictions are hard to break

Thanks as ever Larry. Just a note to let you know that as near as I see it, all the peripheral topics going on are completely supplemental to the thrust of what you're doing. I just wanted to state it this way so you didn't feel left out because it seems like everyone freezes up after you make a new post and we all take off in 30 different directions, in my belief, to stimulate and reflect a lot about what you're teaching us and who you represent to us. Meanwhile, there's some pretty incredible talent developing here at KC which really intrigues me. Back in my teaching days I do believe part of my success was based on pushing my students back into themselves and I also laid myself out completely vulnerable so that they could see that I was just another human idiot. Or as the furtherest eastern cooperator herd for Pharo Cattle Co. stated the other day on an obsolete place on the web called 4.9, "Dennis Voss is stupid and an idiot". I wear that as a badge of honor which may be very hard for some people to believe. Some of my students from many years ago developed into exceptional artists because they figured if Dennis Voss could do it, anybody could do it and I see the same parallel going on with breeding cattle. Somewhere in this thought process that I have going on here is the concept of vulnerability and truthfulness with oneself. All of this has led me to begin developing a thesis on my notion of marketing and the biggest thing I've been thinking about all day is the concept of marketing ourselves to ourselves. It's given me a lot to think about. We invent ourselves as we go along so that when we finally get to a point in our lives where we have to deal with the concept of marketing a product or marketing ourselves, we humans have some real practice already behind us. We have a little dog called Grover. Grover has a sense of humor. I like to think I have a sense of humor and I got to thinking about the fact that most people do have a sense of humor and some animals as well. I realized all my life that without humor I don't think I could have gotten through various points. And if indeed I do have a sense of humor it has developed because of tragedy, death and various variations on human fraility. So, getting back to marketing ourselves to ourselves, there are so many tools we utilize to do this. For me, humor is one of them. I'll never forget the time you told me something about my marketing. I said something to the effect that I could hardly get all my work done due to all the people coming by, all the visitors, all the phone calls, all the "business" of registered cattle. I remember you saying "Why don't you quit running all those 4 color ads all the time?", and I thought to myself, "What a hell of an idea!" I'm leaving this at this point and I will revisit the concept of marketing later. I don't know if this is where Mr. Keeney wants this response but that's where I'm putting it. He's awfully good at shuffling responses around you know.

I just wonder what the casual observer dropping by the Corner, must think, when they pick up the pages, and see all the wacky stuff going on. Dennis, your not an idiot, just a little "out there", on the fringes, I prefer ignorance to idiocy, I am right there with you, doing all kinds of ignorance filled activities, each day. Idiocy, would be much lack insanity, like ramming our heads into that brick wall every day, just knowing today, the wall will crack, instead of our noggin. Some of our more intelligent and seemingly educated brethren, seem to be more inclined to the former. My how the dialetic has grown, changed, and Metaphorisized-----and that is in methaphor, not metamorphisis, though both would seemingly apply, but I like my own made up words better, its funner, and more idiotic.

Poor, Mr. Leonhardt, at his age, I worry, that joining in with the ramblings of lesser aged, and learned fools, that he may get committed. But, when finding the wisdom, in his writtings, interdespersed with mindlless musings of mine and others, I think he may be the only the sane one left. I try to find something to question, but he usually covers it pretty well, if I take the time to reread. I was right there with him, through headless rabbits, genetic literature, orbital beings and behaviors, and such. Then I got down there to the end and just "checked out'', or left the reservation, as some stupid equs flesheating idiot said once. It got me on the warpath, something about Anticipated Offspring Variatable Distrubutions, I hunkered down, tensed up, waitin' for the ruler to slap me on the back of head, jumped out of window, and ran down the crick, to wait it out. I listened real close, to catch the lecture from affar, seems as though, the Variable Distributions are supposed to be all considered, in tandem now. I did a little recon-, could not find one out there on the Websummmaryofsiredisstrubions Ranch. So I am left amiss, but best I could tell, the professorial acedemia recomendations are now to view all traits, and measures, as a whole, with equal selection emphasis on each. Man alive, that is revolutionary stuff, I sure am glad you found that stuff Mr. Leonhardt, I am sure you are too, as us commoners never would have thought of such a thing.

Dennis, I guess this must be what makes me a stupid idiot. I can understand Hopped up rabbits, mythical ranches, and such. But spending a bunch of time and money, to "prove" to others, what the product is, I just do not get it. Then by the time we proved it, we unproved three other things, and back we go on the merry go round.

Once again I got nothing important to say, Mike, pick me out a couple bulls, fill in the check, just remember, I am holding some hostage, for leverage. We get those calved out, Bob H, you can pick me up a couple of those white ones, looks like a good enough plan to me.

Life is Good

Bootheel


.......wouldn't want to dissappoint the Zen Master