what true line means to you?

Problem free, fertile, good natured with the added bonus of gaining weight faster - am a little confused by the selling rituals in the States but in NZ you want an animal that will spend as little time on the property (apart from of course breeding stock) as possible - be that fattening your own and getting them killed prime before the second winter or putting them through the sale yards at specialist age group sales where your stock are compared (over scales) to everyone else's. The best money will always go to the biggest - buyers see that they will have them for the least time before they can kill them fat - for a profit - specialist finishers usually have contracts or agreements at the least with the processors. They are not grain fed so it is all down to giving them every opportunity to gain as much weight on grass as possible - if your genetics are making this more attainable with every generation without losing any of the first stated pre-requisites, then I call that doing it right / better.

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. How is that better?
Better for me is consistent. You can not change them without changing them.
added bonus of gaining weight faster = increasing mature weight, less carrying capacity, larger feed bill, more opens . In my world not better.
what is breeding stock? what is a breeder? isn't everything breeding stock till cut, culled, or killed? get tired of hear how commercial cattlemen are not breeders, and papered cattle are considered better.
the problem with marketing is expressing ideas with anticipation for money.

Quote :

my second most regressed cow

Big clue.

MKeeney wrote:

questions from a reader...I welcome your answers...or even opinions    

In addition, I completed the read of Shoshone direction within a week of our meeting. It has taken some time to clean up my notes into a response. I don't have much with which to quibble. Biggest questions coming out of the read were:

1) What is the availability TruLine stock? How many females in existence at what blood purity levels? (is this measured by IBC? at all?)

2) If creating a TruLine female how many generations would be required to reap say 80% of the benefits? Sexed semen sounds VERY good here assuming females are in short supply. See you're thinking the same way:

http://www.keeneyscorner.com/t1305-early-tru-line-breeding-methods

If I was going to build a herd I would buy females of appropriate phenotype, cull them for disposition/mothering, etc. and breed them to female TruLine semen. Just question of how  many generations until "we're there".

3) What has been the experience in finding prepotent germ plasm for complementary breeds for commercial production? With all the breed organizations trying to emulate the "success" of the Angus Association I would assume this may be even tougher than the development of the maternal line. I assume that limousin bull we saw was a Terminal cross. How advanced are those experiments? Have crosses been identified that would be successful in feedlot? Forage finishing?

As a side note, I was undertaking some consideration of composite breeding around the time of our meeting. I have reached the conclusion after reading A Shoshone Direction that my suspicions are correct in that the Devil is in details of "composite breeding" and that it is a shell game of sorts. When looking at material like this from the Noble Foundation it sounds like this is a nirvana. There are two major downsides they don't discuss versus pure line and  terminal crossing:
a) Building a composite sounds like simply building a breed with the major exception being that any retention from within the herd would reduce this initial vigor potential by reducing the amount of heterozygous genes or increasing the IBC. Devil #1: producer can't retain breeding stock increasing cost & risk of operation.

b) the price of that vigor would ultimately be paid in the form of inconsistency of the progeny unless the original parents were pure lines themselves - not likely today. Devil #2: stock is inconsistent requiring high volumes to sort and average stock with all additional labor overheads.

c) If relying exclusively on that composite (without out-crossing) the producer cannot separate the production stock objectives (and genotype) from the terminal thus limiting potential degrees of freedom. It is highly likely that a single breed, no matter how refined would NOT be able to outperform the cooperation of genotypes to suit portions of the process. e.g. Truline (Maternal) and pure line out-cross for feedlot or even grass finishing.

Thanks again for you time. Looking forward to speaking to you again soon.

again soon was today; and what a joy...how nice to hear their answers to their own questions ...I hope these folks make it to Missouri next summer for everyone to meet; these are the kind of people that make this effort so enriching without getting a dime of their money...
not to dispute Kent at all; but actually paraphrasing a couple of lines  in agreement...

Here's to the unknowing knowing dreamer. I applaud them. There is something to be said about excitement and enthusiasm. I find it infectious and delightful. .

Kent Powell wrote:

What are the sires of the daughters?

just a point of info here; more in reference to the slow and steady commitment to breeding that Larry had than a recommendation to do the same... Larry would breed some of the maternal , yellow line cows to the terminal/paternal red line bulls to see if the traits of the yellow line cow were dominant enough for the resulting females from the "cross" to still make good cows...

Yet the rest of the world cannot fathom that the best terminal and the best maternal are possible in the same animal.

Kent Powell wrote:

Yet the rest of the world cannot fathom that the best terminal and the best maternal are possible in the same animal.    

The rest of the world apparently does not think too much about terminal or maternal. They think terminal and maternal. Larry tested and thought. They assume. They assume purpose, function, inheritance and production. They are backwards thinkers as no business model is ever put into motion by people who are constantly successful without considerations of profit and potentials to maximize profits. $B is an assumed value without considering $CCPP (Cow/Calf Potential Profit) as being much more important to the farmer and rancher.

Gene sorting is much easier than selling the concept of profit throughout the production system rather than at the end point.

Identifying a gene seems to easier than understanding how they work.

You don't need to understand to promote - classic example computer salesmen in the 80's. Carbon credits and sub prime mortgages are understood by very few but a whole industry and then bubble evolved to sell them to the even less well informed. How's that working out again?

Quote :

We have tested over half of our females now and have benefited greatly from finding a few genetic outliers I never realized we had until dna revealed it. For example reg 16746769. Dna made this female a outlier in over 5500 of her sires daughters

wow, maybe we don`t need tru-line...only one daughter to cull out of 5500...

Or 1 to keep and 5499 to cull. No need to find an outlier without using it as the best or the greatest. One cow, one feed bill and one promotional campaign=one big payment. Then coast for years by using the cow's picture in every sale catalog, ... on multiple pages. This one is a half maternal sister, this one shared a haybale with her after weaning, we thought about using the sire of lots 35,36, and 37 to flush her, here is the multi hundred thousand dollar distant ancestor, ... No need to find more than one picture when you can get a lot of use out of the greatest and the best.

And read a university study last night that calves out of half sisters were no more uniform than heifers comingled from various sources based on type. It really enthused me to go out and look for half sibs for assumed greatness.

MKeeney wrote:

Quote :

We have tested over half of our females now and have benefited greatly from finding a few genetic outliers I never realized we had until dna revealed it. For example reg 16746769. Dna made this female a outlier in over 5500 of her sires daughters

wow, maybe we don`t need tru-line...only one daughter to cull out of 5500...

oh gosh, I misinterpreted this...it seems the concern is to maintain and protect the "purity" through the registry... but then to select and prize those animals farthest removed from the characteristics that the breed represents...I`d sure as hell hate having to spend time in a breed I didn`t like...

genius makes obvious what was unknown before...anon

What Is Enlightenment?
Immanuel Kant


Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment.

Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why such a large part of mankind gladly remain minors all their lives, long after nature has freed them from external guidance. They are the reasons why it is so easy for others to set themselves up as guardians. It is so comfortable to be a minor. If I have a book that thinks for me, a pastor who acts as my conscience, a physician who prescribes my diet, and so on--then I have no need to exert myself. I have no need to think, if only I can pay; others will take care of that disagreeable business for me. Those guardians who have kindly taken supervision upon themselves see to it that the overwhelming majority of mankind--among them the entire fair sex--should consider the step to maturity, not only as hard, but as extremely dangerous. First, these guardians make their domestic cattle stupid and carefully prevent the docile creatures from taking a single step without the leading-strings to which they have fastened them. Then they show them the danger that would threaten them if they should try to walk by themselves. Now this danger is really not very great; after stumbling a few times they would, at last, learn to walk. However, examples of such failures intimidate and generally discourage all further attempts.

Thus it is very difficult for the individual to work himself out of the nonage which has become almost second nature to him. He has even grown to like it, and is at first really incapable of using his own understanding because he has never been permitted to try it. Dogmas and formulas, these mechanical tools designed for reasonable use--or rather abuse--of his natural gifts, are the fetters of an everlasting nonage. The man who casts them off would make an uncertain leap over the narrowest ditch, because he is not used to such free movement. That is why there are only a few men who walk firmly, and who have emerged from nonage by cultivating their own minds.

It is more nearly possible, however, for the public to enlighten itself; indeed, if it is only given freedom, enlightenment is almost inevitable. There will always be a few independent thinkers, even among the self-appointed guardians of the multitude. Once such men have thrown off the yoke of nonage, they will spread about them the spirit of a reasonable appreciation of man's value and of his duty to think for himself. It is especially to be noted that the public which was earlier brought under the yoke by these men afterwards forces these very guardians to remain in submission, if it is so incited by some of its guardians who are themselves incapable of any enlightenment. That shows how pernicious it is to implant prejudices: they will eventually revenge themselves upon their authors or their authors' descendants. Therefore, a public can achieve enlightenment only slowly. A revolution may bring about the end of a personal despotism or of avaricious tyrannical oppression, but never a true reform of modes of thought. New prejudices will serve, in place of the old, as guide lines for the unthinking multitude.
This enlightenment requires nothing but freedom--and the most innocent of all that may be called "freedom": freedom to make public use of one's reason in all matters. Now I hear the cry from all sides: "Do not argue!" The officer says: "Do not argue--drill!" The tax collector: "Do not argue--pay!" The pastor: "Do not argue--believe!" Only one ruler in the world says: "Argue as much as you please, but obey!" We find restrictions on freedom everywhere. But which restriction is harmful to enlightenment? Which restriction is innocent, and which advances enlightenment? I reply: the public use of one's reason must be free at all times, and this alone can bring enlightenment to mankind.

more @ http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/CCREAD/etscc/kant.html

Kant so nails this matter; though most would deny their inclusion or complicity here. Our nation's ready, lemming support of a military to the tune of a trillion+ dollars a year is exhibit A of our lazy cowardice and willingness to sell our souls and freedom to the highest bidder. My inheritance clearly demonstrates there are no powers, individual or corporate, to be trusted here-see the Martyr's Mirror and read as much as you have the guts to. This is not a conservative vs liberal issue or sins of omission vs commission or what religion one is influenced by-all are complicit.

The founding fathers of this nation had a great idea in their effort to form a more perfect union. But ultimately we cannot be protected from ourselves. "Irony" becomes the majority and "common" becomes a rarity. Efficiency is going to finally be our undoing because we lack the imagination and character to fill in the gaps for our friends and neighbors as our primitive responses take over and we devour not only our enemies but also our own friends, neighbors and family.

Our house is committed to stand against  the albatross that is the status quo of human nature until the bitter end. We are committed to treat all with dignity and respect-whether "deserving" or not. We will forgive 70 times 7 times and share of our resources with all. We will hold on to hope and act with love to the end of our days.

That's all

Everything has either a price or a dignity. Whatever has a price can be replaced by something else as its equivalent; on the other hand, whatever is above all price, and therefore admits of no equivalent, has a dignity.  But that which constitutes the condition under which alone something can be an end in itself does not have mere relative worth, i.e., price, but an intrinsic worth, i.e., a dignity.
Kant

why do we persist in a breeding program that has no monetary reward beyond commercial utility?

Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them, assuming that their actions do not infringe on the equal rights of others. It is also the idea that every person's pleasure should far surpass their amount of pain. Ethical hedonism is said to have been started by Aristippus of Cyrene, a student of Socrates. He held the idea that pleasure is the highest good.



is money the primary measure of pleasure for every individual? always?

Do the home made muffins Shirley brought me today only have value based on Wal-Mart`s competing price? no, no, they far exceed any value the bull Travis picked up can add to his herd...

Back somewhere in the archives of Gathering discussions, Larry once asked what was the purpose of these Tru-line Gatherings? I posted something thoughtless such as "to spread the good news"...and had to laugh when he replied about us traveling all over North America to "gather", that it appeared to him "it was to spend the money we had saved using tru-line "...
here is a serious video that provides some answers for me...I hope you watch it to the end; it will also be posted under what tru-line means to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llKvV8_T95M

thanks to Kent for calling my attention to it...

only four more shopping days to 2016...I met my quota of one new member/year to the tru-line philosophy ; Tom has met his...

Have you met yours?

363 DAYS TILL CHRISMAS AND LITES ALREADY UP...UNBELIEVABLE.

Breeders are struggling, breed associations are struggling and commercial producers are struggling, which is odd because more information is available today than has ever been available. However, copious amounts of data are relatively useless without, once again, goals, objectives and specific identified outcomes.

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-where-are-the-breeding-systems/


here

MKeeney wrote:

Breeders are struggling, breed associations are struggling and commercial producers are struggling, which is odd because more information is available today than has ever been available. However, copious amounts of data are relatively useless without, once again, goals, objectives and specific identified outcomes.

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-where-are-the-breeding-systems/


here

Looking at the bull sale averages of the mainstream you could hardly say "breeders" were struggling. Don't see why mainstream breed Associations are struggling either - lots of income, lots of empire building going on. If they are struggling to breed better cattle what he says might be true but I think most are oblivious to, or not at all concerned with that. Maybe that's the first goal they should be setting and focussing on?

Grassfarmer wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

Breeders are struggling, breed associations are struggling and commercial producers are struggling, which is odd because more information is available today than has ever been available. However, copious amounts of data are relatively useless without, once again, goals, objectives and specific identified outcomes.

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-where-are-the-breeding-systems/


here

Looking at the bull sale averages of the mainstream you could hardly say "breeders" were struggling. Don't see why mainstream breed Associations are struggling either - lots of income, lots of empire building going on. If they are struggling to breed better cattle what he says might be true but I think most are oblivious to, or not at all concerned with that. Maybe that's the first goal they should be setting and focussing on?

along my thoughts as well Iain...but then I heard of bull sales that need to average $6000 to break even...maybe I`ve been stuck in the wrong middle

my facebook future prediction...


expanding a bit on Daley`s point number 8
"Historically, there has been active resistance to crossbreeding ......(in some cases) breed associations. I would like to commend many of the associations who, quite recently, have taken the risk of suggesting where their animals fit most effectively in crossbreeding programs."

might this be a bit too congratulatory when the move was perhaps more for the survival of the breed association than the economics of commercial production? While I have presented Larry`s "tru-line" suggestion of the need for more prepotent purebreds, only in isolated herds will that philosophy ever be employed.
Given today`s motion and promotion, coupled with modern technology and methodology, the future will be to breed numbers to numbers; more often crossbreds to crossbreds, just a more extreme version of the current registered outcrosses to outcrosses; the only instrument that scenario needs is one large data base for all breeding stock. The future commercial industry won`t afford the luxury of breed associations; in fact, could not afford them now without a constant influx of money from outside the beef industry; primarily used and most wasted in a pyramid playground; depending on a constant inflow of new members and money to replace the ones who just got used up. I sense some association bureaucrats see this coming; and the competition is underway for who will be "THE ONE" relegating the rest to mere social organizations such as pork breed associations are now.

https://www.facebook.com/mike.keeney.71

my "friends" are slowly falling away as softly as the escaping feathers from my grandmother`s old feather bed when she would shake it out...they know I`m right;
but where would they be without the game? I`m always reminded of Fantasy Island and little Herve saying, " the plane, the plane"...in the registered business, it`s "the game, the game" ...

Ahhh the fickleness of facebook - where one liker goes another one comes - it is all but part of the "game"