what true line means to you?

EddieM wrote:

I'm waiting for the recreation of the Wooly Mammoth.  Great thing to create another member of the endangered species.  With genetic work to create it should be a piece of cake to have EPDs for Pat.  And here all along I thought that a wooly mammoth was a great line of Angus cattle in Iowa.  Maybe they can blend the two and Will can drone on about the hybrid vigor.  Then or a loyal zombie can seek out lowline wollies to be more efficient.  What a great deal and all probably on the taxpayers' dime.

YES! YES! YES! And Foxx will become the next Larry Leonhardt!

outsidethebox wrote:

EddieM wrote:

I'm waiting for the recreation of the Wooly Mammoth.  Great thing to create another member of the endangered species.  With genetic work to create it should be a piece of cake to have EPDs for Pat.  And here all along I thought that a wooly mammoth was a great line of Angus cattle in Iowa.  Maybe they can blend the two and Will can drone on about the hybrid vigor.  Then or a loyal zombie can seek out lowline wollies to be more efficient.  What a great deal and all probably on the taxpayers' dime.

YES! YES! YES! And Foxx will become the next Larry Leonhardt!

I think there is another Disadvantaged type that thinks he is the current LL. Or maybe there are two of them. Or three of them. Or ...
I do not think we will see a thinker and practitioner of real animal breeding again in our lifetimes like Larry. Real animal breeding = more proof with own $s than lofty words, high opinion of self or hope of praise. So many folks think that if they can act weird, alone, smug, eccentric, type or write a lot or a little or wear the right hat then they can be something like Larry. I think he stood on merit and experience and the willingness to lose while winning. And he did it in a way to not intentionally make enemies. Like the song says something about Big John, "Here lies a big, big man".

Anyone, including Tom, get or have pictures of the Tru-x bulls Tom had penned up for us to evaluate?

MKeeney wrote:

Anyone, including  Tom, get or have pictures of the Tru-x bulls Tom had penned up for us to evaluate?

Yes , I do .  Mentally . Only years from now  they will  be ignored , misunderstood , and unappreciated catapulters to the next generation of cow making . Thanks  Tom .

jonken wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

Anyone, including  Tom, get or have pictures of the Tru-x bulls Tom had penned up for us to evaluate?

Yes , I do .  Mentally . Only years from now  they will  be ignored , misunderstood , and unappreciated catapulters to the next generation of cow making . Thanks  Tom .

"The purebred business is a con-artists paradise", Leonhardt says.
"I decided I'm just going to breed cattle for myself--that you just
can't successfully breed for everybody."


Existential therapy's view of the human mind

Existential therapy starts with the belief that although humans are essentially alone in the world, they long to be connected to others. People want to have meaning in one another's lives, but ultimately they must come to realize that they cannot depend on others for validation, and with that realization they finally acknowledge and understand that they are fundamentally alone [Yalom, 1980.] The result of this revelation is anxiety in the knowledge that our validation must come from within and not from others.

Wikipedia

"The purebred business is a con-artists paradise", Leonhardt says.
"I decided I'm just going to breed cattle for myself--that you just
can't successfully breed for everybody."


Existential therapy's view of the human mind

Existential therapy starts with the belief that although humans are essentially alone in the world, they long to be connected to others. People want to have meaning in one another's lives, but ultimately they must come to realize that they cannot depend on others for validation, and with that realization they finally acknowledge and understand that they are fundamentally alone [Yalom, 1980.] The result of this revelation is anxiety in the knowledge that our validation must come from within and not from others.

Wikipedia[/quote]


 First thought these were wall hangers and meritly so . Then realized they could be cliff hangers . Now I understand why people migrate to bridges . May my headstone read " Existential Asshole "  .  Jon

In seedstock marketing, it would appear on the surface that validation of a program would depend on others and the price they pay for your product; but that is actually the con game artist validation...

the true validation comes from the extent your breeding program can be a stand alone operation at commercial prices...that`s what keeps the prospect of the dream of becoming an Existential Asshole alive

“When the impossibility of replacing a person is realized, it allows the responsibility which a man has for his existence and its continuance to appear in all its magnitude. A man who becomes conscious of the responsibility he bears toward a human being who affectionately waits for him, or to an unfinished work, will never be able to throw away his life. He knows the “why” for his existence, and will be able to bear almost any “how.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

I hesitated on including the last addition to Reflections Condensed; considering the source ...if it wasn`t said in truth, it still needing saying...and I`ll still consider it as truth applied; the current derogatory actions as disguised advice... just that I disagree and will ignore that advice since disagreement is not an option with some people ...the ability to disagree amicably is key to the survival of any group ...Larry loved the fact that I wasn`t afraid to disagree with him; or to say...I don`t get it...

Thank you for including it all Mike.

What Kent said ...... fascinating slice of human nature too

well, "all" of a condensation is based on content (my judgment); what is said; not who said it...it would have been kinda fun to just leave out the author`s name on all post; but too much editing...
and it would have been  an ok idea to reference the page and post of the unabridged version the selected post came for the extra curious ...but extra work too; the date can take you there if diligent...

enough words are here to inspire the curiosity of some readers;  and the serious efforts of a few breeders...if a breeding idea; a system; a purpose; a group is totally dependent on any one person; it is doomed to be short-lived from the onset; and perhaps not even worthy...Tru-Line was Larry`s creation and breeding dedication; leading by example; and now the concepts are alive and being applied by a new generation ...only one young potential tru-line breeder has been lost in the mayhem; and I understand fully why his allegiance must currently reside elsewhere under a more dominating influence...Craig and I discussed that particular loss that we both miss during our UP journey;  but Craig`s comment gave me pause and greater satisfaction and optimism...
name will  outlive his current constraint and be free to breed cattle as his head and heart dictate...Larry described cows as stayers and sprinters ; you can describe breeders with the same terminology...of course, you must be able to discern between the breeders and the talkers...

yes Megan, the history of cattle breeding is just a microcosm of human nature; ...did anyone ever think science or economics determined the directions ? ...

questions from a reader...I welcome your answers...or even opinions    

In addition, I completed the read of Shoshone direction within a week of our meeting. It has taken some time to clean up my notes into a response. I don't have much with which to quibble. Biggest questions coming out of the read were:





1) What is the availability TruLine stock? How many females in existence at what blood purity levels? (is this measured by IBC? at all?)




2) If creating a TruLine female how many generations would be required to reap say 80% of the benefits? Sexed semen sounds VERY good here assuming females are in short supply. See you're thinking the same way:




http://www.keeneyscorner.com/t1305-early-tru-line-breeding-methods





If I was going to build a herd I would buy females of appropriate phenotype, cull them for disposition/mothering, etc. and breed them to female TruLine semen. Just question of how  many generations until "we're there".




3) What has been the experience in finding prepotent germ plasm for complementary breeds for commercial production? With all the breed organizations trying to emulate the "success" of the Angus Association I would assume this may be even tougher than the development of the maternal line. I assume that limousin bull we saw was a Terminal cross. How advanced are those experiments? Have crosses been identified that would be successful in feedlot? Forage finishing?




As a side note, I was undertaking some consideration of composite breeding around the time of our meeting. I have reached the conclusion after reading A Shoshone Direction that my suspicions are correct in that the Devil is in details of "composite breeding" and that it is a shell game of sorts. When looking at material like this from the Noble Foundation it sounds like this is a nirvana. There are two major downsides they don't discuss versus pure line and  terminal crossing:




a) Building a composite sounds like simply building a breed with the major exception being that any retention from within the herd would reduce this initial vigor potential by reducing the amount of heterozygous genes or increasing the IBC. Devil #1: producer can't retain breeding stock increasing cost & risk of operation.




b) the price of that vigor would ultimately be paid in the form of inconsistency of the progeny unless the original parents were pure lines themselves - not likely today. Devil #2: stock is inconsistent requiring high volumes to sort and average stock with all additional labor overheads.




c) If relying exclusively on that composite (without out-crossing) the producer cannot separate the production stock objectives (and genotype) from the terminal thus limiting potential degrees of freedom. It is highly likely that a single breed, no matter how refined would NOT be able to outperform the cooperation of genotypes to suit portions of the process. e.g. Truline (Maternal) and pure line out-cross for feedlot or even grass finishing.




Thanks again for you time. Looking forward to speaking to you again soon.

Every day you spend thinking about those questions and not actively trying to come up with the answers yourself with animals you are farther behind. Nothing wrong with not wanting to repeat all the mistakes of others though.

Eddie,
without any human intervention except the placement of the guard hog, the flock has begun to flourish...how much should be attributed to natural selection, and how much to the guard hog,  I suppose would depend on the presence of varying predators from worms to wolves...

Don't know about a guard hog but I know some can be aggressive. Worms don't bother the breed too much but KY wolves would be a problem. Cutting edge stuff - guard hog.

things do change....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M31w0oyhf5A

so Leroy has a closer bred Shoshone cow that is average or below in production; yet ALL her daughters are above average in production...he welcomes hypothesis as to why...

eeney
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PostSubject: Re: Dangling Carrots Sun 09 Nov 2014, 19:40 Reply with quote




Larry dispelled the genetic repeatability of the purebred little cow with a like purebred relatively bigger calf long ago...closer investigation finds it is usually an outlier, an outliar, or a reflection of environmental circumstances etc...of course one nice thing of never learning anything is history need never repeat itself Very Happy

for me the better question would be, how will the daughters be used, feedlot or maternity pen? reason ?

larkota wrote:

eeney
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PostSubject: Re: Dangling Carrots   Sun 09 Nov 2014, 19:40 Reply with quote  




Larry dispelled the genetic repeatability of the purebred little cow with a like purebred relatively bigger calf long ago...closer investigation finds it is usually an outlier, an outliar, or a reflection of environmental circumstances etc...of course one nice thing of never learning anything is history need never repeat itself Very Happy  

for me the better question would be,  how will the daughters be used, feedlot or maternity pen? reason ?

Would depend on sires.

MKeeney wrote:

so Leroy has a closer bred Shoshone cow that is average or below in production; yet ALL her daughters are above average in production...he welcomes hypothesis as to why...

this cow is not a small cow producing big calves...she`s an average or below cow in production whose daughters are all above average on production...this is not like producing like

What are the sires of the daughters?

The daughters sire is multiple sire pasture --- who knows something Shoshone the question I keep asking myself is how many good females does a person pass up trying to make a pleasing looking herd. This 8 year old cow is my second most regressed cow, last year at our field day a father and three sons attended saw the regressed cows. They came back before we sold our calves to take another look,the only way to pick out their calves was to read ear tags. The one son commented about the cows breeding up. Now we see this in the next generation more so.

Roy wrote:

The daughters sire is multiple sire pasture --- who knows something Shoshone the question I keep asking myself is how many good females does a person pass up trying to make a pleasing looking herd. This 8 year old cow is my second most regressed cow, last year at our field day a father and three sons attended saw the regressed cows. They came back before we sold our calves to take another look,the only way to pick out their calves was to read ear tags. The one son commented about the cows breeding up. Now we see this in the next generation more so.

Is this not the holy grail of cattle breeding - generational improvement? And you make an excellent point about ordinary (but well bred) to decent to great animals being passed over in favour of the pursuit of perceived excellence. If Fat Boy has taught us nothing else it is that average is actually pretty darn good - so long as they breed better than themselves - our question is how many bulls that would have been a great addition to the stud book in NZ have been sold into the commercial herd - lost (unless a canny stud breeder buys them back and re-registers them) - to be replaced with every piece of junk that can be imported - the same junk that by the looks of it is finally being recognised as the junk it is - defects and all .................................

What is better?