what true line means to you?

the LL wrote:

EddieM and Larkota are focusing on the clubby calf club progressing backward to the 50's prone to favoring hair and BIG bone....W.T. says "bone" size matters.   EddieM says that his fine dense boned, haired sheep have never broken a leg.   I'm anxiously waiting to learn if there is any difference between dense OR thick skulls in rams .... probably doesn't matter in ewes.   Eddie, do sheep have useful breed and across breed EPD's for parasites and all these other things so you can combine just the good things in one sheep....and I have the same questions about your chickens ?  

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Larry and random readers,
Big Bones: The major livestock show in Mike K's home state attracts show bulls with big bones that impress show attendees from Defect Central. I was just wondering if I was missing out on much since I did not attend the show and do not have any cows, sheep, chickens or cats that have been selected for big bones. Sometimes a woman get described around here as "big boned" and it means that she is not a woman who is to be drawn into a fist fight by anyone but Bubba, Hugh John, Junior or other local yokels who have already shed most of their teeth through the natural selection of neglect and eating a lot of discounted holiday candy.

Dense or thick skulled rams: Never gave it much though but most can be hard headed. They do occasionally kill one another in a fit of assumed passion when the head butting gets old and they go for rib shots or side shots to the head or neck. Natural selection is about the only consolation I have as I dig the hole.

Sheep EPDs: NSIP has them if you enroll and pay. Our breed has not made that step. The system of EBVs in the sheep world is based with the mother ship computing force being in AU called LambPlan. Much is discussed of improvements but a number of breeds have open flock books, bring back in parent breeds, etc so the confusion is heightened for many. I do not know if EBVs or my bankers boxes of hand sheets of data would do me the better. There are still terminal breeds and maternal breeds of sheep but the # of terminal breeds seems to increase and the overall # of sheep seem to decrease. There is not a "box" for sheep so the regional and marketing differences are huge for lambs. I doubt if you and I would care to compare a 300+ or 400+ pound Suffolk with a 175 pound St. Croix with or without EBVs. I need something that will be alive when I go out the door every morning and if it is bred I need for it to have its lambs when the time comes and lets me be a mere observer. My sheep barns have leaves during the warmer months and I do not look for additional duties needed to keep sheep alive. Even the cats know to look both ways before crossing the road. Many more were terminal learners.

A picture of some of the April ewe lambs will give Pat a chance to select the best, the average and the worst. Inbreeding coefficients are pretty high on some so I cannot say that a big one is good or a small one is bad but the average ones are average. As ol' George and Tammy used to sing "Time will tell if we're right or wrong" and so ram #415 is with them to produce line crossed lambs for show and tell or whatever it turns out to be.

I know that you just love cattle selected for terminal traits so I posted ram #174 ram for a look at a 3rd generational selection for muscling and growth but specifically muscling. I use the high tech "feel method" to judge loin depth and thigh thickness but batteries are not included. I put the results on a piece of paper and store it in the banker's boxes with all of the other pieces of paper with numbers and comments: hair ++, +, +-, - and muscling gets the same ratings. I need an EBV for ++ to gain notoriety. I do cheat and use scales occasionally to check ram lamb growth but don't tell anybody as I wish that I could guess as good as Mike can on weights but the differences in the hair coats mess with me. Anyhow, #174 has a group of daughters here that have been and will be tested. I'll let you guess how strong the majority were on fertility and multiple births. Some of it was my fault as I got them too fat prior to their first exposure. However, I never told any of them that they looked to be "big boned".

Chickens: I know that 7 dog years is one human year. Anyhow I do not know chicken years compared to man but most of our chickens might be rivaling you for age due to some incubator problems, schedules, weather, and all of life. I have signed most of them up for Medicare to buy their pellets for the winter and will do all that is possible to get several hatches off in early 2014. They are still a linebred group based on selection for type and visual traits. Culling seems to have subsided for the terrible things but there are recessives that will always be with them from what I have seen. that is the problem that plaques a "breed" that had many points of origin and is selected mainly on a size range and a look.

Eddie, rambled to the end

I find it a bit difficult to respond to one of your post's Larry.. As there is very little left to be said, and I find it important to reread it several times..... But this time you got my head a spinning with these word's. (  I'm anxiously waiting to learn if there is any difference between dense OR thick skulls in rams .... probably doesn't matter in ewes.) What thoughts these words compel one to think ???? Well the thick SKULLED Theory may have some credence, and some how I think it may be a environmental issue with Ioweagien men of middle age as it appears that the abundance of home grown corn has created this THICK skulled condition all across IOWA. Now I am a THINKIN that we could get old Dr Beever to do some testing and make a definitive decision as to this being a Genetic condition predisposed to Iowan Farmers, or just over contamination from Corn and fertilizer..... One way or the other it doesn't matter. W.T Thinkin Cattle breeding is boring as hell. And I am thankful that these good people on KC have a sense of humor. Now Eddie how do you expect me to read THE REST OF THE STORY.........   

Big Bones: The major livestock show in Mike K's home state attracts show bulls with big bones that impress show attendees from Defect Central. I was just wondering if I was missing out on much since I did not attend the show and do not have any cows, sheep, chickens or cats that have been selected for big bones. Sometimes a woman get described around here as "big boned" and it means that she is not a woman who is to be drawn into a fist fight by anyone but Bubba, Hugh John, Junior or other local yokels who have already shed most of their teeth through the natural selection of neglect and eating a lot of discounted holiday candy.

Recess is over, the bell rang and it's back to the principal's classroom - -

EddieM separated the components of Gavin's last newsletter with several valid questions, but knowing Gavin, I doubt he'll respond in a public tit for tat forum in Keeneys Corner after spending most of his life doing that in vain.  Gavin hasn't yet forgotten that G_ _  made this a round world without corners, more likely to respond if Mike had named KC "Keeney's Round Table Discussions" patterned after King Arthur's round table, or "Smiley's World"  - outside that traditional registered lock box without windows going back and forth from one corner to another unable to escape.  

I don't know how old Eddie is but I do know he's been around awhile and already knows the answers to his questions.  So thanks Eddie for giving me another opportunity to explain my same ole philosophy....offering proof.   I also want to welcome Tom D to this history class as a honorary member of the unique coming up 80 club, who like Craig, is well beyond his years.   It didn't take me very long to read between the lines of your last post Tom, especially this part: "..... perhaps KC has stagnated due to it's own success. We've developed genuine personal relationships here that make the anonymous internet banter impossible and unnecessary. After a few years of sorting through the sire catalog of personalities and weeding out the blowhards, the dipshits, the haplessly oblivious, and the wannabe gurus, I'm left with a contact list of a few individuals that get it, and get me, and aren't trying to sell anything.....Well that's enough for tonight, nobody reads this stuff anyway Larry."    

That's the pretty blunt truline truth Tom, but whether its one or thousands, the people that really matter do have an interest in reading this stuff.   You are beginning to sound like Mr. Rattler  and remember that you are now a polished product of KC in only a few short years.....that makes it much more than well worth my efforts.  

I wish that every commercial producer could read KC both for its' entertaining play and applied working practicality.   I finally decided that a professional seedstock supplier's job is not to educate, but to serve the commercial producers best interests by example.   There is ample historic proof that the academic institutions of higher learning have not only failed in their educational mission by not applying their own research,  but their tenure is the leading cause of traditional industry chaos that thwarts any improvement in beef production efficiency.....not my opinion, just historic fact that measuring averages without distributions is economically useless.

So Eddie, here we go again to see how complicated we can make this business as we use Gavin and I as examples of learning by experience.   As we move outta the principal's office into history class, I've gotta squeeze 50 years into a couple hours so pull up a lounge chair with your favorite bottle of southern moonshine and this boring post will get better as we near the ending summary.... cuz by then we'll have forgotten these preceding parts cuz they're not very important anyway....only pertinent to understanding our own human nature..  

From personal experience I can say Gavin very much enjoys exchanges via private email wherein he readily welcomes any questions about his program.  His email is waigrp2@xtra.co.nz .   Gavin and I have shared our experiences both reaching the age when a man can finally answer his own questions for his own independent satisfaction.  A very wise man who studies organizations said you cannot have progress without change, and you cannot have change without conflict.   Not without conflict, avoiding organizations, Gavin and I are busy slowly organizing genes for progressive change.....of course, not the same ones.

It's not really my place to speak for Gavin but I do feel comfortable in discussing Eddie's questions on a public forum since I have had some of these same concerns before in my many email exchanges with Gavin.   Especially those pertaining to the male/female gender of a "one size fits all" category which at first appeared to me to be Gavin's  selection direction.  I do this publicly for those few young upcoming breeders who still respect their elders, it is useless for those who are at a much smarter age out to set their world on fire with the inherent ambition of youth.       

So Eddie, before I get into the nitty gritty detail of your questions, I want everyone to  REMEMBER that Gavin's monthly newsletters are promotional explanations of his program to an audience with the TRADITIONAL SHORT TERM MENTALITY....cuz  if our livelihood depends on our own cattle, the tendency is to "over-promote" the positives of our directional objectives to gain traditional acceptance during the interim towards reaching our LONG TERM goals.  

Reading between the lines, my intent here  is to analyze the results of using individual outliers to move a population towards a more sustainable  OUTLINER, cussing and discussing the genetic realities of population genetics ....it is not to appraise someone else's cattle or merits of any individual "outlier" animals.

Gavin uses the word "outliNer", we use the word "outlier" without the "N" in similar contexts...but there is a distinct difference between the two that is so extremely important during this discussion.  Waigroup's primary individual BULL selection appears to be "BEEF" quantity and quality (the primary purpose of "BEEF animals"), that they are moving the entire herd with their current OUTLINER BULLS which includes broader selection for bw, structural soundness, fertility, disposition etc.    Gavin told me progress is by the "square root"....the newsletter only said "We continue to climb slowly for all the important traits in the beef breeding cycle".   He doesn't say his broad selection criteria is just for the benefit of his own closed herd.....he sells breeding bulls, no females are sold for BREEDING purposes.

And without a shadow of doubt, we know there are metabolic differences in the general ability of animals to convert feedstuffs to beef., or milk, or both....in his case, grass.  But I personally don't know or need to know just how the "high performance" and "milk"" or "fertility" genes are linked... does anyone?    Gavin says Weaning weight is 80% the ability of a calf to grow during this period and only 20% dam milk.    Subject to environmental influences, we assume mature size is predetermined before birth.  

Under commercial conditions we assume nutrition turns down those calf growth genes without "enough" milk and simultaneously turns on the "beefy/fat" genes in his mother....about the same way an otherwise moderate beef cow can get when they lose a young calf......which somehow is linked to the rate of reproduction we call "fertility".   Simplified,  it's intake converted to output for whatever the preferred functional selection is....not remembering how many times I've tried to explain how over time form follows functional selection is proven over and over by history, it seems to remain ignored.

Unable to understand just HOW the endocrine system precisely works, rather than using in herd ratios, what I would need then is something like a separate RFI EPD in a public pedigree for cows with different milking abilities and another separate one for bulls.  The traditional assumptions seem to be reflected in the EPD for $ENergy as developed by BLUP or some computerized program?   It is easy to understand why the $EN is absent in most registered mainstream promotions who tend to ignore input while the rest waste their time trying to pinpoint everything trait by trait in unwinnable individual races "seeking" trait leaders for both cows and bulls.

I think I discussed with Gavin my problem with using EPD or EBV's to move the population of the cow herd which is that they are primarily about measuring  individual BULLS since the cows seldom have enough progeny to significantly contribute genetically to the accuracy of the numbers....so we measure a bull's surviving daughters AFTER his distribution has  been culled.    Anyone who knows me also knows I have many problems with the universal comparisons of individual measureable EPD traits with "benchmark" bulls.....frowning when I say the mainstream use of EPD has dimenished rather than contributing to the overall improvement of beef production.

To support that statement requires a lot of "in depth" explanations involving the distributions and the cow's role.   The simplicity to all these wasted individual measures is sexual distinction so well demonstrated by the results in the different functional roles of the male & female. Some have told me they were happier before they knew me.       Gavin has jokingly referred to his cows as "incubators" to perpetuate these highest performing genes from the bulls, but don't tell that to your mother or sisters.    Our narrow, shallow minds tend to misconstrue the full meaning behind such a statement limited to our own traditional interpretation or comprehension.

Eddie, in reference to your comments relating to the increased frequency of "outlier" (without the "n") bulls with the younger PROGENY TESTED bulls like 64/10 or 85/05 being "superior" or some distance ahead of older bulls like 41/97; I would expect this  genetic truth to happen  as a logical result of the primary selection emphasis as explained by Gavin's many newsletters....also stating,  "What has happened in the past is that these animals (bulls) have been mated to females representing the average performance of their population and so their superiority has slowly disappeared.  We still see this happen over and over again thousands of times.   OK, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE ALL THESE "INFERIOR" FEMALES AFTER 200 YEARS OF REGISTERED SELECTION? 

Our first traditional reaction is to move those lagging  cows up to the performance levels of the bulls....but if the bulls keep moving "up", how in this traditional world can the cows ever catch "up". the sire summaries are proof that the cows EPD lags behind the bulls..    Over time we can readily see the results of what happens to the cows from using the EPD's of the individual bulls to move up the EPD of the cow's from the conflicting realities of natural law ....whether we use the entire breed population, Gavin's closed population, or our own herd experience as examples.   Under a commercial environment, the effort to move the cows up to the superiority of the bulls is a futile maneuver which actually reduces the efficiency of BEEF production, which clarifys why all hell breaks loose in the pursuit of that elusive more efficient cow.   I can't remember me talking about least cost production  before, or cconsistently producing more from less, does anyone else remember?.  

In reference to Eddie's concern about the frequency of outlier bulls/cows,  per the newsletter it " can happen, depending on the size of the base population. Obviously the bigger the base the higher the chance.".  Chance...we're told the Waigroup consists of 3 breeders and 800 cows.    By simple mathematics, obviously in an entire breed outlier bulls should happen by chance in greater numbers during the primary pursuit of those "highest performing genes"......and they certainly do exactly as Gavin says....and the "chance" happens more often as we stack the pedigrees with those genes.... it must be those damn females representing the average performance that causes these bull's individual BEEF superiority to "slowly disappear".......I can't remember if I ever talked about the importance of strong gender distinction where the bull "IS" THE BEEF ANIMAL taken "FROM" the cow, you know, the "incubators"....like when we take milk FROM a dairy cow..... or that the primary purpose of the formation of Angus breed was to improve beef quantity and quality, you know, the paternal bull.  

Wyoming is known as the "equality state", where the women's suffrage movement in Wyoming was one of the first to gain women the right to vote.   I find it befitting that the beef cow suffrage movement for equality originated in Wyoming and the Shoshone black cow is free at last from the traditional bondage of AAA.   

The significant difference I see between Waigroup and the entire breed is that the entire breed contains many thousands of cattle with hundreds of breeders going in different directions under many environments while the Waigroup has only 800 cows in a closed gene pool under one master going in a steadfast direction under a more constant "commercial" environment.   Surely the genetic results from the collection of the highest performing genes would be similar, but the secondary  "important traits in the beef breeding cycle" would be the chaos in the entire breed we see today for these other traits.  

I don't remember whether I told anyone or not that about 130 years ago McCombie said commercial cows need not be as big and beefy as purebred cows.....that some bulls are noted sires for bulls, others noted for cows and very few noted for both....eventually in life we must either compromise by living together or get married for the benefit of our children.   I don't remember if I talked about a compatible "marriage" on the inside back cover of my TruLine booklet or not.  

Consequently Eddie, now we get to the most important nitty gritty details.....your interesting question arises about the frequency of the "outlier" cow....the ones breeders select to flush to their "outlier" bulls to avoid the bull's superiority from slowly disappearing.   Gavin's newsletter states " From our semen you can expect an improvement in fertility in their daughters. More efficient drymatter conversion. Better ability to recover from stress. More massive carcases in the bulls for the same food intake and higher cutting carcases...... operating the programme for 50 years. There has never been any deviation from it since it began. During this time we have seen the cow herd increase its calving from low 80% to 98% on the same seasonal grass nutritional levels.... Remembering this performance is on the same commercial nutritional level.....It is of course the manifestation of the high performing genes being slowly built into our population and the continuation of such. Where will it end? I have no idea. But the theory is that there is no end.


conclusion coming...mk

Where will it end? I have no idea. But the theory is that there is no end.


OK, theory.  With a shallow doomsayer mindset, a theoretical never ending herd of continually selecting superior outlier bulls including all the important traits of the breeding cycle on the same nutritional levels could only happen in an utopian world.   Over 30 years ago with a traditional mindset, I asked a renowned geneticist how high was up.... if the sky is the limit, how high is that?     I can't even imagine how science can measure distance in light years or our ability to break the sound barrier, so I'll  never be one to deny that anything is possible, I'll let science explain what I once considered "miracles".    

Obviously, going from 80% to 98% is improvement, but surely natural law and economics determines when "the end" no longer justifies the means.   So when Gavin said he has "no idea where it will end", what he's implying is that there is no foreseeable end to the evolutionary improvement of beef production.   It took me some time to finally comprehend the depth of Gavin's mind  to fully understand and recognize what he was really saying......I did that by continually probing into Gavin's mysterious mind by exchanging the genetic truths (seeking proof Mike) without being handicapped trying to sell each other our cattle....there is absolutely no competition between us.

So Eddie, let's set theory aside and get back down to earth's economic reality.   To answer your question and my own confounding question for my own satisfaction, I asked Gavin how many "outliNer" cows has Waigroup produced over the 45 years.   At that time the response was two, one in '74 and 86/96 who's featured on the Pinebank website, who at that time consistently produced 5 calves 20% greater than the herd average, including 3 herd bulls selected for their superior performance.  That certainly is an ideal superior OUTLINER at this time.... equal to a cow producing an extra calf every 5 years (20% x 5) under the same environment.  But that's just one cow, if there were another entire herd or strain like them, the production would be 20% greater than Gavin's herd is today.....and we'd all like that.
 
Now for the rest of the story,   I then asked Gavin about the 2 females this outliNer cow had produced, and if I remember correctly, I think he said "they failed to conceive".   Gavin has often implied that fertility is the most important trait.   The newsletter states "From our semen you can expect an improvement in fertility in their daughters. (more than 80%???)    More efficient drymatter conversion. Better ability to recover from stress. More massive carcasses in the bulls for the same food intake and higher cutting carcases."   It's about as  vague as when I say the truline concept can produce more from less.  

"From our semen" (progeny proved) , a traditional mindset would think we all need individual EPD pedigree numbers on our cattle to determine if "more" means than the breed average or  than we "expect" to get from our traditional habits.    By the way, I love Gavin's public pedigrees with just the breeder's name and number showing the year born, entirely responsible for all the ancestry where only he knows the ancestry constantly selected for HIS criteria, with no one else to either blame or give credit to.

When I first became interested in the Waigroup program,  I noticed the Waigroup literature was promoting carcass value with pictures of "carcass winners" from open heifers.   I became more confused when later Gavin told me they sell no females for breeding purposes, all "surplus" females were sold for slaughter.... about the same time he told me his production consisted of bulls, beef and cull cows and part of his sheep production was cull ewes.   I became even more confused when Gavin cautioned son William about using too many bulls out of one cow, specifically the OUTLINER cow William favored.....about the same time he said he uses pedigree to avoid close breeding.  

Naturally I thought the reason was to his aversion to inbreeding .....until Gavin sent me this email nearly two years ago in January, 2011 , the longest email I ever received from Gavin.   I have condensed and extracted the pertinent  content and the words in parenthesis are my insertions for clarity.

From: Gavin Falloon
To: Leonhardt

Subject: Inbred Strain Usefulness

If you imagine two sheets of paper, each sheet representing the different breeds and each sheet has a hole where its gene weakness lies.    When you put the two sheets together on top of each other the chances of any of the holes matching is very low.   So the resulting progeny represents the very best of both breeds.

Inbreeding removes variation in an inbred population when genes are concentrated.   It is variation that is how and where improvement comes from.   Why I am trying to reduce my inbreeding is that as it rises, the depression created negates (phenotypic) progress.    This (genotypic) progress remains in the inbred herd but cannot be seen or calculated.  It is recovered when the herd is outcrossed and that is why intensely inbred herds perform so well when outcrossed because they are recovering all that depression (in the phenotype).   It is not his (the purebreds) job to ride heterosis.    It will dissipate.   The only way that you can retain heterosis (non additive) is to keep adding the purebred with its (the crosses) resulting instability and high variability.

What Gavin wrote is common knowledge, the difference is the subject - Inbred Strain Usefulness.   I became interested in the Waigroup cattle for their purported self-sustainability and steadfast selection in a closed herd.  I suppose Gavin became interested in my cattle for being a purported inbred maternal strain in a closed herd.    Gavin has said he has heard about me since the 1980's when I was on top, and one of his disappointments is that he has never been able to meet me or see my cattle.   A few years ago Mike and I were talking about making a trip to New Zealand to see Gavin and his cattle but I'm too old and lazy.   I know what Gavin's cattle represent and I am as close to him as the computer.

I must have first heard about the Waigroup cattle about 10 years ago when Bill Hodge became their USA representative in Georgia.   I had met Bill back in 1972 when he worked at Wye, a closed herd.   It's common knowledge that closed herds are very rare today.  The content of Gavin's email is interesting cuz it just happens to coincide with the very essence of the TruLine concept.

Gavin has asked me many questions about my herd and selection, e.g. how many years do I use a bull..... about the injuries from running multi-sire groups.....do I use that method of  multi-sire groups on the theory that the best bull will sire the most calves....who helped me decide on what to stabilize......I know you gave up registration, do you DNA test any calves or do you not worry to identify them....how spread is my calving......there are lots of questions

Eddie, as usual I have made the simple complicated.  Gavin told me it has cost him a lot to do what he does  but he would do it all over again and so would I from the joy of the challenge and the people I've met along the way.  I greatly enjoy and appreciate Gavin and his insight about cattle breeding.   Promoting this concept for 30 years has been  like the birthing process, the greatest pain comes before the greatest joy.  The parameters of a "better way" has not been laid out by me, but learned from history.   Gavin has more persistence and unrecognized insight about cattle breeding than any man I have ever had the opportunity to meet.  

SO WAKE UP FROM YOUR NAP EDDIE,  it's time to take that last sip of your moonshine and forget all of the above and all your traditional questions about Gavin's Newsletter.   This post is nothing more than just a true story of our history..... of  no significant value to any traditional minded registered breeder.....written for myself and like Tom D said,  I'm left with a contact list of a few individuals that get it, and get me, and aren't trying to sell anything...... the concept is free.    

And Eddie, if you think this post is long, I just want you to know I've already condensed it down about 10 times from the first draft......I could have summarized this whole post with just one word, TruLine.   All of this is not very important in the grand scheme of life......but then neither is golf, except for Mike   

FROM HEREON, IT IS THE ONLY PART OF THIS POST THAT MATTERS - -

MY ASSUMPTIONS ARE THAT Gavin has a paternal lineage of current "OUTLINER'  proven beef bulls knowing that they'll  be mated to working cows as an outcross in type to EXPECT MORE.... having no idea where improvement in the eternity of life will end, who knows if miniatures or giants will adapt to the future resources available.   So we are left to freely speculate why Waigroup set up extensions of the Waigroup cattle in southeastern USA where grass is greener longer and another in northern Alberta where there is no corn.    Gavin says he has just barely begun his 120 year program, I'd call mine a "120 yr envision"  

To speculate why Gavin said all breeders shouldn't be breeding the same thing
To speculate why Waigroup doesn't sell any females for breeding.....whether that is about the same thing as me not publicly registering my cattle
To speculate that from Waigroups distributions of variability, Gavin has identified the form of a current OUTLINER cow that could maximize current efficiency optimizing complementarity (heterosis) about the same way I did.
To speculate that Gavin's efforts to improve prepotency is about the same thing as the principles of a successful breeder that Wright established nearly 100 years ago  
To speculate that Gavin believes with proof that the important traits in the beef breeding cycle of the same repetitive wondrous things are as important with paternal lines as they are with maternal lines
To speculate that Gavin has proof that [color=#33ffff]It is not his [/color](the purebreds) job to ride heterosis.   It will dissipate, that the crosses resulting instability and high variability as parents can reduce the superiority of either parent.
To speculate that Gavin believes the crosses should be terminal beef products, about the same as the TruLine concept
To speculate that Gavin is in the 2nd stage of research and development in the identification of his cattle to improve beef production
No need to speculate on and on...... when the worst OUTLIER is the one that deviates the most from our own  OUTLINER  we become a TRULINER  

To speculate that if the Shoshone maternal strain (from this closed population) and type were similar to Gavin's two "OUTLINER" cows mated to his proven paternal bulls, the expected first cross in the entire population ( as an overall group) would more efficiently produce a more predictable consistent terminal beef product that would be superior to what either parent could produce on their own.   In theory, the half-blood Waigroup bulls that MK and DV purchased was back when they still had a traditional 50% mindset....had they had a 100% non-traditional mindset, they would've known that those bulls should've been "terminal beef products" - but don't tell that to MK and DV   

No need to speculate on and on...... when the worst OUTLIER is the one that deviates the most from our own OUTLINER  we become a TRULINER  

When Gavin says I sound very disappointed, after 30 years, I am.    I cry on the inside and laugh on the outside at the same time watching how the traditional elite registered mainstream with their high dollared, caveat emptors thwart the improvement of beef production saying the same old things over and over like its brand new......looking forward to when the years are up for the old wrinkled traditional habits carrying their scimitars and a new cuddly baby arrives with resolutions to make things better; resurrecting  a fresh spring to plant new seeds to build herds of "outliner cows" under a  commercial environment, with independence.  

Lastly, it`s Mike's turn to answer a coupla questions.    So Mike, if your cow you pictured below is near to being your current OUTLINER would you please explain extensively to OCC , PCC and KC why thicker would be to her detriment?    The second question is if ABC is your long term objective with A your maternal base, and C is your paternal, could you explain to KC why you need B?   You have said you would use EPD to breed C, please explain to KC why you think it would  be easier and faster breeding a more prepotent C than A?   What EPD would your current C outliner be today?

thicker would be to her detriment  




LL, thinkin it`s time for me to crawl back in my cave and hibernate so I can be rested enough to attend all the exciting new bull sales from the best crop the registered mainstream  ever bred or fed.

I`ve contacted an old and wise contemplative thinker from outside the registered mainstream for help on those LL questions for me and will get back to them soon ...

LL wrote:

I don't know how old Eddie is but I do know he's been around awhile and already knows the answers to his questions.

Larry, I'm old enough to know better but am still pondering what I want to be when I grow up.

I admire your keen insight into my questions, too. I do not know if you ever had the "opportunity" to be an expert witness in a courtroom, but the attorneys that are worth their salt and a fraction of their fees will get you all prepped for days or hours before hand by going through every possible angle of question, attack or comment. Life can be played as a game, in many ways, when you know that you are on the side of right. Chat sites are hard because we cannot read body language or smell the cigarette smoke to know if we are befriending someone or beheading them with our comments.

I remember sitting 2 days on hard courtroom benches watching the opposing attorney. Habits are good and habits are bad. This guy questioned individuals in a strong habitual manner. He would walk over to his table, study his notes, rise up with his back straight, develop a sneer on his face and them stroll over to ask the next question in the face of the witness. He did this day after day and witness after witness and was the most twisting of questioners I had seen in a while. So, I finally got called up and sworn in and the circle of the vulture began: notes, straighten, sneer, stroll, question, return, notes, straighten, ... What did ol' Eddie do? When the "notes" were being studied just prior to "straighten" I would offer one more comment to either the judge or the attorney. MY GOODNESS, I busted up the routine. Confusion replaced "sneer". Twisting did not have a chance. The day was won on clearly presented truth and not a system. And so we here at KC ask questions and give replies and answers without the acts and actions known but for the truth of the day to win out. Or at least that is the way I see it.

So, maybe I THINK I know the answers to some of the questions before hand but I DO know that I have studied the book mailed out by Briann. I have tried to look at it in a broad manner and in a detailed process. I'm summarize the results and provide no dumb looks but plenty of dumb statements to keep you writing for the cold of winter in between your naps and swigs. You made quadruple use of your time by running multiple lines/tag colors of cattle. The reds let you find and identify the maternal disappointments of terminal cattle. The yellows and greens let you fine tune what you liked about maternal cattle. And maybe the Clark cattle let you try cattle from outside of your "box". And maybe I am wrong four times over. But as you spent a year you gained 3 years or two years or whatever level of experiences over a person with one line, one hope and one dream.

To be honest, I do not and probably will never understand the weaving and raveling that was done with the Wye cattle to get you started. That is about as much of the "detail section" that I can provide right now.

MKeeney wrote:

I`ve contacted an old and wise contemplative thinker from outside the registered mainstream for help on those LL questions for me and will get back to them soon ...

he says start easy and work up... 

LL wrote

In theory, the half-blood Waigroup bulls that MK and DV purchased was back when they still had a traditional 50% mindset....had they had a 100% non-traditional mindset, they would've known that those bulls should've been "terminal beef products" - but don't tell that to MK and DV

the above is one answer

a second is...inquiring minds want to know  

a third is... Instead, the principles of the successful breeder have been exceedingly simple. He isolates and fixes a good type by careful selection and close breeding. If ambitious to take a greater step in advance, he crosses types with characteristics which seem to offer possibilities for a desirable combination and fixes the new ideal by continued selection and close breeding. Sewell Wright

the third answer is often cut short by the second {inquiry} being disappointing...

EddieM, thanks for the answers to my vital questions, now I can sleep like a baby cradled in a mother's arms listening to lullabys.   Keep singing Ebenezer, I figure your mind must be about Mike's age.  I'll need more data from the answers we get from my questions to Mike before I can predict the expected difference, however, based on the length of his answers Mike may be as old as Gavin..   From WT's smiley comments, I'd bet he still has all his teeth.

Eddie, you've pegged my unravelings correctly  but chained to my obsessions I had to reconfirm them from outside sources.   To my surprise the yellows exceeded the carcass quality values of the blues, hence I combined them and called them my  beef jerseys....the greens were too big for efficiency, and I determined the reds would be better served from other sources.   I figured one "success" outta four was better than none out of dozens.   I learned to dot my I's and cross my T's very carefully when dealing with the unreliability of "crosses" and two-way "double crosses".

For an example of proof, and in an effort to counter your Court story seeking the truth, here's my own true "cross"  story..  Some years ago I sought a court judgment against Dan Cross, president and his wife Val, secretary...   local owners and manufacturers of Cross Panels, Inc.   That February I had ordered $17,000 worth of continuous Cross Fenceline panels, prepaying in order to get a 10% discount with a "Cross Panel"  receipt for delivery in about 45 days.   Busy farming not worried about the panels, come August we drove over to pick up the panels (about 20 miles away) and the place was vacant and closed up.    We knew Dan and Val (a daughter of our Vet) lived in the house behind the manufacturing shed, now divorced,  and she told us they sold the business to Alan Collins and he had went broke and just walked away.    Alan was the Cross Panel rep that signed my receipt.   All does not bode well.

WHERE IN THE HELL ARE OUR PANELS?  Lots of detail like in my posts Eddie.   During the pre-trial discoveries between the lawyers, we think our panels are in Arizona as we learned Dan's Master Plan.   The previous December two months earlier, Dan had supposedly made a "verbal agreement" to  sell  the $20,000 factory (jigs and a couple of welders under an old wooden shed ) to Alan, an employee for $1,000,500.00, which included $980,500 estimated trademark value and a list of customers.   Dan would loan Alan  $30,000 to make the down payment allowing  Alan to immediately take over the business.   In the simultaneous impending divorce settlement, Dan would get the "current inventory of panels" and Valerie "the house and real estate to rent "the factory" to Alan and $450,000.00, payable at 50,000 per year for 3 years when the ending balance of 300,000 would be due in one lump sum..   Can you imagine how happy Valerie would be signing all the legally drawn up papers, signed and sealed in March, about 30 days after our order (and several others)

Day of trial - Dan had moved to Arizona to start up his new business with his new lover and repossessed jigs, welders, and any remaining inventory.....well he couldn't attend the trial cuz he had the honest to God contagious chicken or Asian flu, unavailable for CROSS examination or subjected to tell the whole truth so help him God.   The defense lawyer said it didn't matter anyway since the contract had nothing to do with Dan and Valerie even though the official sale papers weren't signed until March, that the verbal agreement was valid before the sale documents were actually signed.  The defense attorney gave all the details, how the bank set up an account for the new Cross Panels WITHOUT the INC.  Like the difference between outlier and outliner, there was a distinct difference between "Cross Panels" and "Cross Panels, Inc".   After much testimony, the judge exonerated the CROSS's and held Alan solely responsible, a pathetic soul without a dime in his pocket.   We spent some more money legally chasing Alan around for a while to attach his wages, but with  laws the way they are, over the years we collected $142.46.....gross, and netted over a $20,000 loss, no smileys here for the truth.   Dan Cross has since changed the name of his business again and re-sold it to another idiot rendering the trademark of "Cross" more than useless.

Ever since, I've determined that ALL CROSSES SHOULD BE TERMINATED, cross my leanheart and hope to die, look what they did to Christ, and the crossroads in the AAA, and crossword puzzles filled with black spaces.....I have enuff crosses to carry.

My likability rating of a +++ for Mike had moved down to a ++ for his posting the closeup picture of my ears and wrinkles, but it has moved up again to a +++ for posting the picture of his expert with superior ears and wrinkles, likely a result of  a GMO gone awry.   Mike's expert advised him of 3 options......"a third is... Instead, the principles of the successful breeder have been exceedingly simple. He isolates and fixes a good type by careful selection and close breeding. If ambitious to take a greater step in advance, he crosses types with characteristics which seem to offer possibilities for a desirable combination and fixes the new ideal by continued selection and close breeding. Sewell Wright"

Sorry Mike, your expert's aged wrinkles caused him to forget to finish it ............with prepotent bulls of the same type, the difficulty is in the application .....cuz to fulfil your ambitions, where in Sam's hell are those P R E P O T E N T  bulls of the same type with characteristics which seem to offer possibilities for a desirable combination .  I like your advice better than your experts....."practice, practice, practice until we finish our swing"

LL, poppin my head up outta my hole for a looksee at MK's  answers to my questions , not some ole wrinkled black eyed expert's opinions on what I said..

...and fixes the new ideal by continued selection and close breeding


OF THE PARENTS!

LL, just helping Tom D read between the lines while dotting his I's and crossing his T's to reach a 100% non-traditional mindset.

ok Larry, some of this is escaping my understanding, and my advisor`s as well...and I see tom`s advisor is already a nervous wreck...

case in point...

when the worst OUTLIER is the one that deviates the most from our own OUTLINER  we become a TRULINER  

in the meanwhile, more  findings{the reasons for my third
answer ; "new combinations are rarely further pursued"} of my inquires with limited sampling sizes...

100% Line one Hereford bull noted for "maternal" on Hereford cows here...let`s just say, "it`s makes about as little sense to be going to Miles City to buy Hereford maternal as it does to go to Wye to buy a "growth" bull...

Hoodoo Charolais...a bull; 30 pure cows that produced some using bulls...first bull  created first crosses that worked well as cows...subsequent mating's; too many problems

OCC...to answer the occ, pcc question...THICK, whether the result of fat or muscle,  is a TERMINAL trait...

Pinebank...remember LL; I also used 100% bull...limited sample; there was little difference between the 1/4 or 1/2 in type or variability...one thing certain, too little frame and growth to be ideal terminal cattle for the American mainstream commodity market; probably good grass-fed terminal {years of selection after all}...might be a good maternal cross on higher milk type cows if change was desired...

but then  thinking of my Shoshone experiences, plenty of variation still exists to make CHANGE  from within a gene pool that I am more familiar with...

critique/ questions of the above postulants...
Can you buy a program in one bull or have you merely selected an individual from a program?

my answer is you have bought an individual...and to base a criticism or praise on a program from limited sampling is foolish ..yet, go read ACS daily...forget herd names and pedigrees...type trumps both...

MK, thinking the lid has been blown off the Pandora`s box, the sides are expanding, and still yet, the rabbit won`t be put away until  spring ...

Larry, I've been so busy reading between the lines and cracking the code of the dots and dashes that I didn't even notice the age spots and wrinkles. I'm pretty handy with photoshop, would you like me to fix up that photo for you??? I'm honored to be the youngest inductee into the old farts club, I must be senile beyond my years. G_ _ knows I'm not quite sure what these I's and T's are about, and my overthinking counterpart is on vacation, so I'm going to have to marinate on this for awhile. Speaking of marinade, I just slipped a 23 lb. bird into the brine to soak overnight. Part of my patented, proprietary turkey preparation process. Don't worry Larry, I'm still happily married, I just like to cook.

Larry, did I ever tell you that I'm honored to be the youngest inductee into the old farts club, I must be senile beyond my years. I still don't understand your understanding of the oldest member from down under. Is it possible that you're reading between the lines too much???

I'm also struggling with how close to 100% to get and what color crosses to terminate. If greens were smaller, could they be spared? What about crossing two different shades of yellow? What's a better way of avoiding depression in a closed population, constantly using the within-strain outlier, or using the inlier from a similar strain?

TD, crossed and confounded.

Tom wrote

I'm also struggling with how close to 100% to get and what color crosses to terminate. If greens were smaller, could they be spared? What about crossing two different shades of yellow? What's a better way of avoiding depression in a closed population, constantly using the within-strain outlier, or using the inlier from a similar strain?


let`s extend that question to a commercial situation...What's a better way of avoiding depression and maintaining a  level of uniformity in a commercial maternal population, constantly using the within-strain outlier, or using the inlier from a similar strain, or an inlier of a similar strain of a different breed?

I'm not to sure how many other breeders are trying to do what some here are trying to do. So I guess there aren't a whole lot of predictable options out there when it comes to outcrossing. I think it comes down to choosing between predictability or more heterosis. I guess it would depend on what you plan on doing with the calves.

Outliers, inliers, the liers can market either one. Sometimes the same animal qualifies as anything you want it to be.

Naw Tom, we better forget that photo shopping stuff, we're dealing with the honest to G_ _  reality here.   However, whether they're honorary old age or sun spots,  showing that photo of me again did reduce your likability rating to a ++.      While technology has increased the demand for facelifts, I think I remember you improved my alien image once before and it created a ruckus among some Hutterites.  Don'tcha remember, the Hutterites all wear the same type of clothes for easy recognition....and they stay pretty much isolated in their own communities away from the rest of the population's more ambitious progressive habits.    I guess being of German descent, they're my kind of people, the other end of the distribution from Adolph's superiority.

As G_ _ is my witness, the other day I read in the Billings Gazette where the demand for home grown Montana Hutterite Thanksgiving turkeys far exceeded the supply again, especially the demand for 50 pounders.   Honest to G_ _, the Hutterites said those big turkeys are just too hard to raise, and they don't want to raise Ostriches  just in order to fill the demand for 50 pounders - not wanting to contend with their habit of sticking their head in the sand when faced with certain realities.  

During one of Betty's weekend retreats on the other side of the Big Horns, she said she enjoyed watching wild turkeys actually fly and roost in the tree tops at night.   Betty tends to favor cooking butterballs and I  read somewhere that big-breasted turkeys actually can't even mate, that they're a man-made GMO that requires AI.    Somebody is always taking the fun out of life.

Many years ago Dr. Miller, a baby doctor specializing in gynecology and a Georgia Angus breeder, who liked to cook like Tom, treated us with his specially prepared Georgian delicacy of quail....Betty was somewhat reluctant to eat these tiny whole birds.    I hardly remember what they tasted like, I suppose like chicken, all I remember is how tender these little birds who grew up in the wild were for someone without teeth to eat....W.T. would have no appreciation for that.

Questions, too many questions and not enuff answers.  I've turned the job over to MKeeney to answer these age-old questions here on KC, my job is to explain Truliners.   However, I don't know if I can trust Mike's age of forgetfulness, unless he's still about 25% traditional with his answers. About Pinebank, he says one thing certain, too little frame and growth to be ideal terminal cattle for the American mainstream commodity market; probably good grass-fed terminal {years of selection after all}...might be a good maternal cross on higher milk type cows if change was desired...  

Good grief, a 100% Truliner isn't supposed to care about the mainstream commodity market or what they do.  A truliner can fill whatever market he prefers in one year with fixed ideals for a more desirable combination....from continuous selection and close breeding of the fixed parents...so we at least know what we reap is what we sow.    Sounds like Mike's already forgotten that I said Pinebank set up an extension in Georgia where natural grass eating cattle are by nature going to be a smaller delicacy so they eat better, kinda like caviar is the delicacy of fish, or kinda like Wagyu melts in your mouth  for Yippinese people, who can all afford delicacies.  

Mercy, Mike shoulda learnt at KU that those little fine boned Jerseys were the No.1 ranking breed in the USA for tenderness even without any selection for it.....Eddie learnt that from his sheep and chickens...and hunters learnt that between eating antelope and elk, not to mention that G_ _ made moose out of all the leftover parts and aren't comparable to anything else.   I don't know when we learnt Jerseys were unaffordable for meat so we milked 'em, but it was only 30 years ago that my neighbor crossed Jerseys on his Hereford cows to add some milk and CE....that combo called Hersheys was an economic bittersweet wreck with or without nuts.

So, why would any Truliner ever use Gavins cattle to reduce their superiority by mating them to higher milking cows to change them.into Amerifats or faX (fresian angus X), made in KS, Yewessa or somewhere like that.   With my one track mind, maybe I wouldn't have mis-interpreted Mike's "might be" if he had said "might be a good PATERNAL cross on...." to produce T's, not combos like OCC.   And then there's PCC who learnt that P follows O in CC and PCC has another one track little mind, I mean on littler is better, he just doesn't know where the selection direction he's going is going........

I'm aware that non-truliners think I'm being a smart-ass, and just walk away.  Mike is seeking proof, so without confirmation, instead of guessing at what direction Gavin is going with his selection and what they "might be" useful for in the long term, I listed FREE potential speculations to form our own opinions.  Surely my speculation on Gavins selection for manageable birth weights has some validity in controlling size, besides we already learnt that little cows can't have great big birthweight calves....big cows have enuff trouble already.  

Differing interpretations of the same words is a lawyers favorite occupation so I gotta watch what I say here and in O Hi  O.   We have an awful time with the habit of calling "paternal breeds" terminal when they absolutely cannot be. . No wonder the doubting Thomases are still confused about dotting the I's and crossing T's, (short for terminal).   So Tom the wild turkey roosting in treetops to keep away from the Michigan wolves, has come up with a better word "inlier" (long for dotted I's, a distinct area or formation completely surrounded by another) when he probably  meant "inliner"......at least that ought'a end the confusion between outlier and outliner, now better described like the opposite of inbred and outbred, .or inbreeding and outbreeding....but he still has confusion over continuous selection "CLOSE" breeding which must lie somewhere between in and out.

And, Tom D's still struggling with his special Terky recipe, "how close to 100% to get and what color crosses to terminate. If greens were smaller, could they be spared? What about crossing two different shades of yellow? What's a better way of avoiding depression in a closed population, constantly using the within-strain outlier, or using the inlier from a similar strain?" There ya go again Tom makin the simple complicated.....ask MK.  I'll just explain that now that we've got the words all straight, a truliner prepotent maternal inliner remains rather static, a truliner prepotent paternal outliner to be crossed on a truliner inliner is subject to change.....whatever shades of color you choose, from the distributions of the lighter and darker shades, they are outliers to the 100% primary color of the inliner (ratios) or 0% x 0% = 0%  change (short for optimum).....the established O% inliner is always the best among the outliers.   How much simpler can it be as selection for the inliner prevails and self-regulates "N"(short for normal)  degree of closebreeding  rather than IBC....N% x N% = T O..... its as simple as ABC.  

I don't remember or understand what I just said (its not for skimmers) so for example, Ed Oliver, who has been a truliner breeder since the late 70's in Georgia, recently sent me a picture of a cow he picked from me when she was three who best represented HIS "inliners".   Now pictured as a coming 11 yr. old, representing 6 generations of MY constant selection of maternal inliner characteristics.   She has been mated to Ed's selection of both inside and outside closebred bulls of expected similar types to sustain the prepotency of the same known maternal characteristics in their pedigree without regard to IBC.   To simplify all this, Ed still maintains public registration papers, I retain proprietary papers and therefore Ed cannot register this cow or her progeny.  

Nevertheless, she is solely an Ed Oliver "O Cripple Pines Farm" cow, but more than just one purebred cow, her progeny are the result of continuous selection and "close" breeding to increase the frequency of  prepotency.  The proof of the pudding is the pictures of a coupla her grandaughters.     I don't know what color they are represented to be, they are the center of Ed's color for regular reproductivity and problem free productivity of whatever that color is intended to be..... I'd call it royal purple.   Just so you know, Ed calves in the late fall









Not selected for hybridization but for self-sustainable production.   I dare to speculate that mated to Gavin's Paternal Outliner bulls, we could NOT expect improvement in fertility in the bull's daughters, but LESS;  we could NOT expect more carcass quantity and quality, but LESS; we could NOT expect more maternal consistency, but MORE variability; and thereby we could expect the superiority of Ed's cows to slowly disappear      I know for certain that any potential truliner breeder would enjoy exchanging emails with Ed at edwinsoliver2000@yahoo.com ......and I know that you can buy his stock to get started for half the price they're worth, the gospel truth is instead of paying high dollars for their cattle,  I got mine from Ed, MK & DV for nothing.....of what fun it is to run and play with potential truliner breeders today compared to yesterday.  

LL - spending the joyous Christmas season in the vicinity of wild turkeys of many colors with the ability to still roost among the tree tops knowing we're all red on the inside with not one true blue-blooded one amongst us.

Larry,
I have your Christmas present bought; sending it next weekend...a book by Nate Silver titled

the Signal and the Noise...why so many predictions fail;;but some don`t...

it talks a fair bit of Bayes Theorem...

An Introduction to Bayes' Theorem

Bayes' Theorem is a theorem of probability theory originally stated by the Reverend Thomas Bayes. It can be seen as a way of understanding how the probability that a theory is true is affected by a new piece of evidence. It has been used in a wide variety of contexts, ranging from marine biology to the development of "Bayesian" spam blockers for email systems. In the philosophy of science, it has been used to try to clarify the relationship between theory and evidence. Many insights in the philosophy of science involving confirmation, falsification, the relation between science and pseudosience, and other topics can be made more precise, and sometimes extended or corrected, by using Bayes' Theorem. These pages will introduce the theorem and its use in the philosophy of science.

Begin by having a look at the theorem, displayed below. Then we'll look at the notation and terminology involved.



for non-skimmers  
http://www.trinity.edu/cbrown/bayesWeb/

I cannot respond here for a while as I have no monkey pictures.  Maybe tomorrow when the blues are a little bluer, the greens and the reds get put out for decorations and the yellows are the color of egg yokes.

EddieM wrote:

I cannot respond here for a while as I have no monkey pictures.   Maybe tomorrow when the blues are a little bluer, the greens and the reds get put out for decorations and the yellows are the color of egg yokes.

Eddie, you may need Silver`s book as well to help separate the signal from the noise.... 

Bayes theorem has very modern and pragmatic application...using it, Silver points out, you can determine the probability that your wife is cheating if you find strange male underwear in your dresser  

MKeeney wrote:

EddieM wrote:

I cannot respond here for a while as I have no monkey pictures.   Maybe tomorrow when the blues are a little bluer, the greens and the reds get put out for decorations and the yellows are the color of egg yokes.

Eddie, you may need Silver`s book as well to help separate the signal from the noise.... 

Bayes theorem has very modern and pragmatic application...using it, Silver points out, you can determine the probability that your wife is cheating if you find strange male underwear in your dresser  

I like the quiet of the pasture to avoid signals and noise and to be honest the knowledge gained from Sanford's "Genetic Entropy" was plenty (too much) for me. Not sure that I can deal with a mystery centered around bloomers. I am old fashioned and keep my undies in an old chifferobe anyhow with none of this modern furniture. What was good enough for Grandma is good enough for me.

Eddie, speaking "briefly" with thoughts of chifferobes, pie safes and hoosier cabinets

EddieM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

EddieM wrote:

I cannot respond here for a while as I have no monkey pictures.   Maybe tomorrow when the blues are a little bluer, the greens and the reds get put out for decorations and the yellows are the color of egg yokes.

Eddie, you may need Silver`s book as well to help separate the signal from the noise.... 

Bayes theorem has very modern and pragmatic application...using it, Silver points out, you can determine the probability that your wife is cheating if you find strange male underwear in your dresser  

I like the quiet of the pasture to avoid signals and noise and to be honest the knowledge gained from Sanford's "Genetic Entropy" was plenty (too much) for me.  Not sure that I can deal with a mystery centered around bloomers.  I am old fashioned and keep my undies in an old chifferobe anyhow with none of this modern furniture.  What was good enough for Grandma is good enough for me.

Eddie, speaking "briefly" with thoughts of chifferobes, pie safes and hoosier cabinets

a closet and dressers would be much cheaper eddie, but if it was grandma's.... priceless.
larkota thinking what I have is old and worthless and what eddie has is old and priceless.

LL wrote

Quote :

About Pinebank, he says one thing certain, too little frame and growth to be ideal terminal cattle for the American mainstream commodity market; probably good grass-fed terminal {years of selection after all}...might be a good maternal cross on higher milk type cows if change was desired...

if form follows function, Bayes theorem would suggest as probable, but never certain I suppose, that after a period of time, the longer the better, that form would allow one to predict the most probable function of a form...appraising Pinebank stock and the selection criteria, I would predict above average performance on grass...and less than best performance and outcome on feedlot rations...
I am producing beef, and seedstock for beef producers..the commodity producer...anyone wishing to produce Jersey branded beef, call me...I can get bull calves almost for free  

LL wrote:

A truliner can fill whatever market he prefers in one year with fixed ideals for a more desirable combination....from continuous selection and close breeding of the fixed parents...so we at least know what we reap is what we sow.

Can the truliner fit the market or can the crosses of the truliners with paternal lines fit the market? Hasn't/Isn't marketing of the true truliners been the bottle neck?

How did Mike know what to expect from an outside cross from beyond the waves from cattle he had not seen without seeing a few of the results? Isn't that always the unknown of line crosses and out crosses?

Eddie, with a chifferobe

EddieM wrote:

LL wrote:

A truliner can fill whatever market he prefers in one year with fixed ideals for a more desirable combination....from continuous selection and close breeding of the fixed parents...so we at least know what we reap is what we sow.

Can the truliner fit the market or can the crosses of the truliners with paternal lines fit the market?  Hasn't/Isn't marketing of the true truliners been the bottle neck?  

How did Mike know what to expect from an outside cross from beyond the waves from cattle he had not seen without seeing a few of the results?  Isn't that always the unknown of line crosses and out crosses?

Eddie, with a chifferobe

I think I should have known Eddie  ...Tru-line would mean to me no more, shoulda, coulda, woulda...is 30 years of Ed`s selection crossed with 30 years of Larry`s selection not a cross? At best, I see type to type...how much prepotency does type to type create? very little in my opinion...