what true line means to you?

I don't know that to be true. I doubt our visual appraisal means much unless our preference is for something that is contrary to what we want: Easy fleshing, early maturing, gain, growth, milk, beef type, dairy type... Too much or too little. I doubt making them all look the same through selection would have much effect.

Bulls are just an entertaining conversation piece to look at and discuss. Their presence is only necessary for a month or two a year to get the next set of calves. Mostly tradition, but not necessarily all bad as there is still a shroud of mystery over what a bull, that sires lots of calves and functional long lasting cows consistently, looks like. Perhaps it doesn't matter, but there is a pattern. The methodology is to use sons of functional long lasting cows and then let them compete to sire the most calves and leave a legacy. I don't think there is a shortcut to avoid this methodology. I don't have the answers, but I have created lots more questions to pursue and clues to follow. The journey continues.

[quote="EddieM"]

MKeeney wrote:

EddieM wrote:

MK wrote:

...selecting a type, and letting inbreeding find it`s own level ...

Why select for type in a closed population if you are going to let inbreeding find it's own level?  Aren't those opposites?

not opposites at all; by my definition at least...

you guys don`t/can`t select for functional type?

This would only work out if the type you are wanting and selecting is the average of the closed population.  Otherwise one is forced to select outliers with the desired type so that the inbreeding is never as effective.  Everybody selects for type.  But if that works then the herds should have all be a lot better decades ago.  

well true, but the registered mainstream changes type as soon as a type is established so they can sell "new and improved"...

Is selecting for type that much more effective in a closed population?  

not the type itself, but the consistency of the genotype becomes much greater in a closed population...

Is type selection more powerful that inbreeding?

vaguely related at best

Larry wrote...
This year I am 77 and I got tired.   I got tired of trying to breed cattle that please everyone for every reason.    I got tired of all the increasing demand for more and more trait by trait individual measures .   I got tired of all the other literally useless rules and regulations.    I got tired of the ever changing correctional selection directions.   I got tired of all the improbable high expectations seeking non-renewable perfection.    And boy oh boy, did I ever get tired of people measuring "success" by some monetary value.....    

Should the Tru-line motto be...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"  

how tiresome...

Dear Angus Breeder,


First, let me say thank you! Thank you for your hospitality, your handshakes and smiles, and thank you for opening up and letting me be a part of such a great Angus territory.
Since I grew up in the Angus business, I knew I was stepping into a region steeped in Angus excellence, and I was certainly reminded of that during the recent National Junior Angus Show (NJAS) in Indianapolis. From the show’s opening day, our presence was known with the Reserve Grand Champion Female in the Bred-and-Owned show going to Blake Boyd of Kentucky, and a solid set of Division Champions and Reserves all from the Kentucky, Ohio and Tennessee area.
The second show-day followed suit, with Reserve Grand Champion Bred-and-Owned Cow-Calf Pair going to Lauren Grimes of Ohio. The week also included a solid performance in the Owned Heifer Show and several of our juniors were recognized as scholarship winners. I am humbled to work for such a great group of breeders and juniors. Capping off the week – Jordan Mullett, Ben Connor and Blake Boyd were recognized as Gold Award recipients, and Lauren Grimes was elected to the National Junior Angus Board. We are also very proud of our outgoing board member Maggie Jasper; great job Maggie!
Another interesting figure to note: During the final show day at the NJAS, more than 3,500 viewers were watching live via online coverage through Walton Webcasting. This was a tremendous new feature that included colorful commentary and excellent video for folks unable to make the trip. You can watch all the show again online and access full show results.
The NJAS continues to improve, and if you’ve never been and you’re in the Angus business, go next year! I don’t know of any other event that showcases purebred livestock and youth in the magnitude and class of the NJAS.
It’s a great time to be in the cattle business and a great time to be in the Angus business. Our commercial customers are receiving historical values for calves, and cull values for slaughter cows and bulls continue to make my head spin. Demand for Angus genetics is as good as its ever been, and in light of current tight supplies of cattle, I expect this fall to be a great start to a strong sale season.
In preparing for sales, please let me know what I can do to help in merchandising your cattle, through ads in the Angus Journal, Angus Beef Bulletin, The Angus Report or marketing through our new AngusAuctions.com for online sales and bidding. If there is any way I can help with purchasing or selling, building a program or changing directions let me know. I work for you!
Don’t forget to register for the first-ever Angus Means Business National Convention and Trade Show, held Nov. 4-6 in Kansas City, Mo. It’s going to be a fantastic event, jam packed with practical educational seminars, the Angus University, social events and entertainment (including cowboy comedian Baxter Black), and a trade show featuring 90-plus allied industry partners. Traditional yearly business meetings conducted by the Association, including the Annual Meeting of Delegates, will be held, as well.
Early-bird registration is only $25 prior to Oct. 1, and registration grants access to all sessions and evening activities. And, if you register before Sept. 5, you’ll receive three chances to win a brand-new Yamaha Viking VI. Those registering after Sept. 5 will receive one chance to win per registration.
If you plan to be a leader in the Angus business or if you want to catch up with old friends in a new setting, then I’ll expect to see you there!


Take Care and Buy Angus,


Alex Tolbert
Regional Manager
American Angus Association
atolbert@angus.org
Cell phone: 706.338.8733

MKeeney wrote:

how tiresome...

Dear Angus Breeder,


First, let me say thank you! Thank you for your hospitality, your handshakes and smiles, and thank you for opening up and letting me be a part of such a great Angus territory.
Since I grew up in the Angus business, I knew I was stepping into a region steeped in Angus excellence, and I was certainly reminded of that during the recent National Junior Angus Show (NJAS) in Indianapolis. From the show’s opening day, our presence was known with the Reserve Grand Champion Female in the Bred-and-Owned show going to Blake Boyd of Kentucky, and a solid set of Division Champions and Reserves all from the Kentucky, Ohio and Tennessee area.
The second show-day followed suit, with Reserve Grand Champion Bred-and-Owned Cow-Calf Pair going to Lauren Grimes of Ohio. The week also included a solid performance in the Owned Heifer Show and several of our juniors were recognized as scholarship winners. I am humbled to work for such a great group of breeders and juniors. Capping off the week – Jordan Mullett, Ben Connor and Blake Boyd were recognized as Gold Award recipients, and Lauren Grimes was elected to the National Junior Angus Board. We are also very proud of our outgoing board member Maggie Jasper; great job Maggie!
Another interesting figure to note: During the final show day at the NJAS, more than 3,500 viewers were watching live via online coverage through Walton Webcasting. This was a tremendous new feature that included colorful commentary and excellent video for folks unable to make the trip. You can watch all the show again online and access full show results.
The NJAS continues to improve, and if you’ve never been and you’re in the Angus business, go next year! I don’t know of any other event that showcases purebred livestock and youth in the magnitude and class of the NJAS.
It’s a great time to be in the cattle business and a great time to be in the Angus business. Our commercial customers are receiving historical values for calves, and cull values for slaughter cows and bulls continue to make my head spin. Demand for Angus genetics is as good as its ever been, and in light of current tight supplies of cattle, I expect this fall to be a great start to a strong sale season.
In preparing for sales, please let me know what I can do to help in merchandising your cattle, through ads in the Angus Journal, Angus Beef Bulletin, The Angus Report or marketing through our new AngusAuctions.com for online sales and bidding. If there is any way I can help with purchasing or selling, building a program or changing directions let me know. I work for you!
Don’t forget to register for the first-ever Angus Means Business National Convention and Trade Show, held Nov. 4-6 in Kansas City, Mo. It’s going to be a fantastic event, jam packed with practical educational seminars, the Angus University, social events and entertainment (including cowboy comedian Baxter Black), and a trade show featuring 90-plus allied industry partners. Traditional yearly business meetings conducted by the Association, including the Annual Meeting of Delegates, will be held, as well.
Early-bird registration is only $25 prior to Oct. 1, and registration grants access to all sessions and evening activities. And, if you register before Sept. 5, you’ll receive three chances to win a brand-new Yamaha Viking VI. Those registering after Sept. 5 will receive one chance to win per registration.
If you plan to be a leader in the Angus business or if you want to catch up with old friends in a new setting, then I’ll expect to see you there!


Take Care and Buy Angus,


Alex Tolbert
Regional Manager
American Angus Association
atolbert@angus.org
Cell phone:  706.338.8733

If they're only going to be in the sport for 7 years they had better enjoy all of the chances they can get for gala events before they sell out and move to some other form of entertainment. But I doubt if even 5% of all AAA members participate. It is just something else to keep the folks busy who have nothing to do or a way for folks who need the ego boost to get another trinket. Same as the vast sports and entertainment of the country along with the cheap food policy to hold down uprisings: a planned preoccupation so that the masses will not become a thinking and public. Just another expression of the same effort for a specific segment of society.

Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following{PRECEDING..MK} pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.

Thomas Paine

MKeeney wrote:

Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following{PRECEDING..MK} pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.

Thomas Paine

Tru-line means never facing this dilemma

Ok question has anyone used any of the calf catchers mounted to a 4 wheeler or ATV?

Old age is catching up and new green hired hand I'm looking at buying one. Used to carry tag stuff, vaccine, scale and catch calf do all at once. Calves are lighter now but harder to lift lighter calves and used to catch every calf first grab.

clarification...the catching part; old age comes the same; tru-line or not
 of course, you could marry rich as I did and have someone younger do it for you...but why?? I knew cows had to jump through bureaucratic hoops; I just never thought about a man would have to get in a hoop as well...sounds a bit too much like your day in the barrel ...well, after all, it is the registered business and somebody is going to get

tru-line means you get a good chuckle out of tossing the Select Sires route letter listing their 5 top bulls for WW, YW,CED, $B, YH {taller}, YH{shorter} in the trash ...of course, no different than the footnotes of breeders saying "our top weaning 205 day wt calf, our best $EN bull, our best scan data, etc...

and then this...

The 2014 Ohio Cattlemen's Association Replacement Female Sale will provide an opportunity for both buyers and sellers to meet the need for quality replacements in the state. Consignments may include cow-calf pairs, bred cows and bred heifers. Females must be under the age of five as of January 1, 2015 and may be of registered or commercial background. Bred females must be bred to a bull with known EPD's and calves at side of cows must be sired by a bull with known EPD's.

 are all bulls with epds better than all those with none? or just the registered bureaucracy passing rules to self-sustain themselves ? how come no epds on the cows/heifers themselves to determine their value as a cow?
they actually got that one right by accident; since there are NONE

Old habits die hard...Bill Riggins, New Mexico rancher,send these pictures of bulls he`s using...I started to call Bill for names, pedigrees, etc...and then I thought what does it matter, prove, or disprove to post names or numbers...we can see the type Bill is using; in an environment that seems damn expansive{correct spelling } to me...I can say that 906, first pictured here, is a somewhat closer bred concoction of "yellow" that I put together here and passed on to Bill; like marriage, for better or worse; since he`s still there, I assume the relationship is tolerable



these look about the same to me...I would want to see their dams before passing any judgment for my use...

I will have a go at this one. Just registered tonight for this forum as I did not know it existed previously. What Tru Line means to me may be totally off the wall but here goes:
If we are going to use the Tru then it means
breeding tru to my eye, tru to my needs, tru to my environment and tru to my experience, knowing holistically that one always affects the other.

welcome bulls4u,
we all bounce ideas around off the walls here; now and then , some lose a little skin in the game; those left have healed tougher; occasionally, someone is inspired and more confident when he finds he isn`t walking a different path all alone...

Thanks Mike, and thanks also for hosting said forum. It is pretty tough to be a rancher and not lose some skin figuratively or actually! I have not had time to read all the posts on this subject so if I duplicate anyone I am sorry.
I would add though, that no two TruLines will or should be the same because of different genetics, environment, breeding and living goals and experience. This does not make the breeder right or wrong, just different, and in reality this difference will tend to make a stronger breed of whatever.

bulls4u wrote:

Thanks Mike, and thanks also for hosting said forum.  It is pretty tough to be a rancher and not lose some skin figuratively or actually!  I have not had time to read all the posts on this subject so if I duplicate anyone I am sorry.
  I would add though, that no two TruLines will or should be the same because of different genetics, environment, breeding and living goals and experience. This does not make the breeder right or wrong, just different, and in reality this difference will tend to make a stronger breed of whatever.

agreed; only the Tru- applies universally across all the "lines"...

the next location for an organization meeting for Tru-line will be below; as we continue to screen the wishy washy from our midst...
click on the other pictures to see the path to the meeting hall...

http://www.tripchinaguide.com/photo-p222-1062-mount-huashan-china.html#photo_title

I`ve been to the mountaintop; I`ve seen the promised land; Jupiter aligned with Mars this morning



those that can`t see the profitable possibilities for all the registered rhetoric; have all my sympathies and none of my time...

MKeeney wrote:

I`ve been to the mountaintop; I`ve seen the promised land; Jupiter aligned with Mars this morning



those that can`t see the profitable possibilities for all the registered rhetoric; have all my sympathies and none of my time...

in case someone took the above too literally...
a purebred march born limy steer grafted at two days old on a first calf heifer... ...I`d guess he had a 100 lbs "GROWTH" already...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/curiosity_the_mysterious_compound.html

how poignant

How does promoting cross breeding and heterosis grow demand for registered Angus?

MKeeney wrote:

how poignant

How does promoting cross breeding and heterosis grow demand for registered Angus?

more proof that the primary objective of AAA is not to enhance the profitability of commercial cattleman... enhancing the profitability of commercial cattleman is the primary objective of Tru-line...

It is the AAA BOD member's duty to promote black Angus while on the BOD regardless how many breeds of cattle he has at home. If a person cannot handle this responsibility then they should not be on the AAA board.

not  complaining here; always good to read truth that presents an opportunity to fill a void in the cattle business...

when, or if, you have some contemplative time...a lot of Sapolsky mixed with a little Nash...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_pkurcA_nw

Kent`s questions going to waste at Advantage...

The breed registry argument is: what is the purpose?

Is it purity? Purity of what? Is there purity of purpose?

Is it control? Control of the industry? The industry produces the annual financial impact of the largest association in about a day and a half.

Control of the members? Lots of members seem to want that power.

Is it exclusivity? Is it about culling the herd of producers who don't go along with whatever the powers that be decide what needs done?

Is it about job creation? Does filling out a compliance form or paying a fee make anything better than is was in its undocumented state?

Don't worry about the crossbreeders. The Simmental Association has already absorbed the multibreed data accumulation job and aligned with both the has beens and the up and comers. The AAA had the chance and the progressive purists scoffed at the idea of utilizing their sacred staff and equipment to document other cattle. Of coarse with the ever changing fads and trends, where is the purity other than on paper?

Is the AAA going to force the stick in the mud traditionalists, the show jocks, the hobby guy... to adopt the "right way", whatever that means at any point in time? Is performance going to be mandatory like the rest of the registered industry, or is there going to be a place for diversity of thought and management to fit the diversity of environment?

Is it going to be service based or threat and fear based?

The breed registry argument is: what is the purpose?

what is a breed?...what is a registry? a breed is group of cattle with common characteristics...Angus today has two...polled and black...since there are a lot of polled and black cattle, are they all Angus? or any less Angus?
a registered Angus must be derived from animals already entered in the registry...quoting Dido, "what`s the sense in that?" beyond creating artificial value? none
unless
you have performance programs that describe differences beyond black and polled
but what if
you had breeders who selected for consistent characteristics beyond black and polled for succeeding generations
then
those herds/breeds could be described by the breeders name
and
registry would be superfluous ...
value would be based on genetics instead of the fallacy of "papers"

Is it purity? Purity of what? Is there purity of purpose?

purity is 100% homozygosity...therefore, there is no purity in cattle; purity only exists in a few characteristics determined by a small number of genes...color, horns, some dwarfs, etc...purebred Angus{or any breed} is a traditional misnomer , assumptive fallacy

Is it control? Control of the industry? The industry produces the annual financial impact of the largest association in about a day and a half.

no, it is about creating significance out of insignificance ...with enough players and levels, the pyramid creates winners and losers  and thus, significance to the players...to a guy selling a bull at a reasonable price to a mother, two sons and 2 granddaughters who came a 100 miles to buy a bull, the breed registry is pretty insignificant; the seller of the bull is of far greater importance to them.
I have to laugh reading the ACS Angus means Business soap opera...the internet has given the most insignificant of us a forum to be read, and we are prone to occasionally think we become someone of some importance because we can write for free...whether we are read, heard, or believed.....I need to occasionally pinch myself now that Larry`s not around to do it for me with...

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Insignificant, exaggerated or self important as it all may be it is very entertaining to observe ............... it has always been my experience though that where there is smoke there is usually a flame of sorts - there could well be many little spot fires but all creating a little heat and excitement for those closest.

Interesting that the ills of breed associations appear to be the same the world over. Not surprising really as the same human emotions which come into play - seemingly .... pride, greed, jealously, avarice, ego and spite - cross borders, cultures and races (breeds). The internet just allows them to be more readily exposed perhaps - certainly discussed