Help needed!

I'm trying to write a follow up article for our Luing Newsletter to bring some of the ideas we discuss here to our commercial customers as well as try to let them know what we are doing with our breeding program. I normally enjoy writing but find this the most challenging material I've ever written about, partly because it's so complex and partly because I don't understand it all that well myself. Anyway, my wife usually critiques my writing but draws the line at stuff she doesn't understand so I thought I'd throw it out to all you critical thinkers who know the subject better than me to critique. Let me know the crazy bits, what I've missed or how I could make it more relevant or understandable for commercial cattlemen. Either reply here or PM me, Thanks in advance.


"Last August I travelled to Red Lodge, Montana to meet up with some futuristic cattle breeders from out with the registered mainstream. It was an outstanding success as an event, many friendships were formed and great cattle discussions were held. Red Lodge is where Larry Leonhardt pastures most of his Shoshone herd so it was a chance to see his cattle as well as those of another couple of ranchers who have used Shoshone genetics to good effect in their commercial operations. Since my return I have spent much time reading Larry’s writings and am slowly acquiring a better grasp of the genetic truths he has discovered over a lifetime of breeding cattle. The more I read, the more I understand how the conventional breeding methods used by most purebred breeders can never bring about the genetic goals their commercial customers seek with any consistency.

The biggest problem in my opinion is the misuse of heterosis in beef production systems. Heterosis (or hybrid vigor) gained by crossing two unrelated animals results in an “F1” offspring being able to outperform either of its straight bred parents. Benefiting from heterosis in its most simple form can be achieved by crossing a terminal sire like a Charolais onto a straight bred maternal cow – the offspring will be terminal and should be treated as such.
A slightly reduced heterosis benefit can be captured in a crossbred cow like the black or red baldie. Crossing an Angus bull onto Horned Hereford cows produces this good commercial cow that can wean a heavier calf than either a straight bred Angus or Hereford cow. The downside of heterosis is that this F1 cow cannot reproduce herself – no matter what you breed her to she will not produce a daughter that will exceed her own production and performance as a mother cow on the same feed resources.
Now it’s easy to visualize these crosses I’m talking about because they are different breeds but we must realize that heterosis exists within our current breeds as well, and to a much greater extent than it used to. By definition all domesticated breeds of animal were formed by gathering together foundation stock of similar or complimentary types and line-breeding or close breeding them. The purpose of this close breeding was to achieve stabilization of type by reducing heterosis and increasing homozygosis (homozygosis is the opposite of heterosis and is also referred to as “inbred depression”) This is the only way to create a breed or strain of cattle that will reproduce themselves predictably and it works by reducing the variation present so that the animals are more likely to breed true.

I have included a chart (not shown here) which demonstrates the levels of heterozygosis or homozygosis that are achieved by various mating combinations. The chart clearly demonstrates that out-crossing within a breed is very much on the increased heterosis side of the page, right next to crossbreeding yet most purebred breeders proudly advertise their “outcross” genetics as the way ahead. This appears to be mainly a marketing strategy – branding their product as rare or unique, the only one that has a chance of correcting problems in your current herd thereby justifying paying an inflated price for. Being an outcross and likely also an outlier for some in-vogue trait adds to the appeal but it all seems destined to end in disappointment as what you see (phenotypically) is not what you get (genetically) with any repeatability.

So why did we move from the point where most breeds were breeds (i.e. predictable pools of genetics with certain characteristics) to a point where the title “breed” means not much more than a collection of animals whose registration dues are paid to the same office?
I suppose it comes back to an unrealistic attempt to combine all the positive traits into one animal as well as financial considerations and bogus marketing. The benefits of heterosis are well known by the average purebred cattle breeder but instead of passing these benefits on to the commercial sector where they should be utilized they are increasingly being retained in the purebred herd. This certainly enhances the performance of the purebred – it’s a way to have bigger, faster growing bulls to sell but the commercial buyer of these bulls is being cheated as the bulls can’t reproduce themselves with any predictability and the effect of the hybrid vigor has already been diluted. The result of all this is that both the purebred and commercial producer have increased culling rates and reduced production efficiency as the increased variation in the progeny means many are not able to perform the role they were bred for.

I’m convinced more than ever that Larry’s approach of purifying strains of cattle with certain characteristics and then cross breeding them at the commercial level will produce the most predictable, efficient and ultimately profitable beef production system. Larry established a program named “True line” in the early 1980s whose intent was to establish an industry level alliance of breeders that would develop strains of cattle along the lines of the above to increase the efficiency and profitability of commercial beef production. Perhaps his thinking was too far ahead of the times as sadly it did not achieve the uptake or recognition it deserved back then. There is renewed interest in the True line concept among the group of breeders that met in Red Lodge last fall – perhaps now the industry, or at least a portion of it, is ready to move ahead with a systematic, planned genetic improvement system.

What became really clear at Red Lodge was that this is about population genetics – moving a whole herd or strain of cattle towards a goal. There were no exhibits of wonder cows or famous bulls as there are on most cattle tours, just lots of cows and bulls of a uniform type reflecting the tight genetic pool of their ancestry. It is clear that after forty years and many cattle generations this herd is stabilized at a level that is functional and efficient for the environment and the conditions under which the cattle are run. This level of stabilization has been achieved by purifying the strain of cattle through continual breeding of same “type to type” matings and elimination of outliers. There is no need or desire to bring outcross bloodlines into this herd to “enhance performance” as this would lead to randomizing the herd genetics again resulting in less predictable outcomes.

With a greater understanding of the efficiency benefits to be derived from a True line type approach to cattle breeding the goal for my Luing herd is to refine a proven, stabilized, line of parent stock. The purpose of this strain of cattle will be purely maternal as there are already plenty of terminal genetics available in nearly every other breed. It certainly is not a “get rich quick” scheme and indeed I expect it will make marketing our seed stock harder rather than easier. The reason? – the inbred parent-stock will look different to what most buyers are used to selecting. I read that in the plant breeding world the inbred parent lines used to make a successful hybrid are often pathetic looking plants in themselves and the same might apply to cattle. We must somehow train our eyes and minds to accept that we are looking at components of a final product, pieces in a jigsaw, rather than be disappointed that all the components don’t look like the final product – in the case of cattle, the terminal steer. To quote Larry “The greatest mistake seed stock suppliers make is to pattern that stock after the commercial terminal product – which is more efficiently achieved by crossing”

I see this stabilized parent stock line of Luing cattle we are developing having two obvious roles in beef production in Canada. One would be to provide females to breed to a terminal bull like a Charolais. This simple cross would maximize the benefits of hybrid vigor by combining the maternal goodness of the Luing and the enhanced meat yield capability of an appropriately selected Charolais. Having used Charolais bulls on Luing cows in the past I’m confident that you would have no trouble attracting a premium for the feeder calves as these good haired, tan calves are always in demand.
Given our current shortage of Luing females another alternative is to use Luing bulls on Red Angus females to produce female F1 offspring that are better suited to Canadian conditions than the straight Angus that is so common nowadays. The Luing will contribute a heavier hair coat as well as improved foraging and wintering ability. I have found these two breeds to be very complimentary when crossed and of course being an F1 you will collect the benefits of hybrid vigor through enhanced production efficiency, fertility and longevity. On the male side we have been very happy with this F1 cross as it gives us a steer that sells well enough in the sale ring as well as producing excellent quality beef in our grass-fed beef retailing program. The steers are easy to fatten on grass and marble very well in our experience.

I realize this breeding program I’m involved in is a going to be a difficult, time consuming endeavor that likely won’t be completed in my lifetime but each day is a small step towards the destination of my journey. Despite our breed being relatively young and really not that many generations removed from its Highland/Shorthorn origins I think the levels of heterosis within our breed are probably lower than in many other breeds. The gene pool in Canada is so small that there already is a level of close breeding in almost every animal. On top of that the foundations of this tight gene pool in Canada were sourced from the Cadzows while the breed in Scotland was still tightly bred and controlled by the founding family. We are quickly tightening up the gene pool within our herd by close-breeding but realize equally that close breeding in itself does not constitute genetic improvement or stabilization. Although we aim to concentrate the good genes we realize that we are also concentrating the bad ones but at least this way they will be revealed and can be dealt with. Heterosis masks these negative traits and allows them to persist in the population. The cattle will have to be thoroughly evaluated so we can differentiate between effects caused by heterosis rather than the truly superior animals and that will be a challenge given our limited herd size. My hope is that as the years go by we will be able to breed cattle that will make our customers more money through improved consistency and efficiency in a hybrid based commercial system. We hope that you will stay with us for the ride!"

GF, I think you do an excellent job of summarizing and making the case in a fairly concise manner that holds ones attention. Your proof-reader may wish to change some of the wording here and there but in general it is a good read.

kinda wordy and very kind refreshing to read about breeds or lines that are to be crossed to maximize their use; instead of them being perfect within themselves...nice to read ideas instead of self- righteous, self-serving sermons on Sunday morning as well...the march continues...

Grassfarmer can I post this article on advantage message board?

pat

Thanks for the comments.
"Very kind" how Mike? too kind to the conventional breeding methods?
Pat, I don't care where anybody posts my stuff, as long as it's clear it's my stuff. Maybe put it on 4.9 for a laugh? I'm always more concerned that I may be quoting some of Larry's stuff out of context or misinterpreting some of his writings and I'd hate to damage "the cause" that way.

In my opinion, if the article is going to be that long, break it up into smaller paragraphs to make it easier to read. I would also suggest making it shorter. Discuss the meeting in WY in the first newsletter, and leave them wanting more. In the next newsletter, give them more information, and maybe leave them wanting more. Over 3-4 newsletters, you lay it all out but leave them wanting more. It might go like this;

1) meeting in WY and why lines or breeds are needed; next newsletter I will outline the role of seedstock producers
2) role of seedstock producers; next newsletter I will discuss how to build a productive, predictable cowherd
3) how commercial producers can use these lines to build a productive, predictable cowherd.

I think you want to be cautious of giving the "whole load of hay" all at once. Once the newsletter goes out, post it on your or your breed association website.

In the fall, you can give advice as to which females should make the most productive mamma cows. I think you need to lay out the whole plan for commercial producers. Is the F1 then end of crossbreeding? If so, does the commercial producer buy F1 females or do they raise them? If they buy them, is there a source? If they raise them, do they have one herd of Breed A that is linebreed and they buy bulls of Breed B to make the F1?

Whatever your answers, I think you need to be prepared to lay it out in a simple fashion. Successful breeding programs are pretty simple.

Good reading Ian hope to see it on the 4.9 that would be some Quality input that they are sorely missing... Maybe Larkota could call the boner and get him to post it

Grassfarmer, I really enjoyed it, if I were you I would use the words of wisdom handed forward by df. The "whole load of hay" is beautiful. This is good advice for all of us. Then theres the posts that are "two little forks of hay" but thats another story. DV in the vicinity.

I forgot to include that I think it is important to tell a fairly complete "story" but each story is just one chapter in the whole book and each chapter can go in one newsletter. There are +70 pages in "Reflections"; can it be summarized into 3 - 4 newsletters.

What would really help sell this concept is that each person who believes in it, post the summary on their websites. commercial producers don't want to do something their neighbors will laugh at; they need to think the idea they are following is not held by only one "strange" seedstock producer from another country. When a group has the idea, there is validation.

Grassfarmer, you did good.

But, I must take this rare oppurtunity to agree with df, and give him a pat on the back, as he did good too. DF, you got skills.....use them for good.



Bootheel, feeling awfully agreeable

I call Bullshit on this one:

they need to think the idea they are following is not held by only one "strange" seedstock producer from another country. When a group has the idea, there is validation.

Individualism is alive and well in the commercial sector. Why do you think there are 100's of bulls to pick from in the sire directories.

df wrote:

I forgot to include that I think it is important to tell a fairly complete "story" but each story is just one chapter in the whole book and each chapter can go in one newsletter. There are +70 pages in "Reflections"; can it be summarized into 3 - 4 newsletters.

What would really help sell this concept is that each person who believes in it, post the summary on their websites. commercial producers don't want to do something their neighbors will laugh at; they need to think the idea they are following is not held by only one "strange" seedstock producer from another country. When a group has the idea, there is validation.

Hloy shit DF You want 70+ pages of someones Soul condensed to 3-4 newsletters . I don't give a bottle of boar piss what my neighbors think about my beliefs that have been held and practiced for many years let them laugh on .And I will continue to laugh at the show me heifer hoops that have contributed minimal to no maternal goodness to the commercial herds throughout the state . Do you want validation or pic marketing peer pressure ? Jon in need of Moose Drool

What I am reading is that TruLine is NOT simple and cannot be summarized. In other words, there is no plan that is relatively simple to follow. And you wonder why more seedstock producers are not "breeders".

I think Grassfarmer is the only one on this thread trying to sell a fairly unknown breed with some fairly unused breeding program to commercial people. (What kind of "grass" are we talking about !) Because of those issues, he would benefit to show successful people in the well known breeds that he is following their leadership in making his herd work for the commercial producer. Validation of the principles.

And notice the (highest) semen sales go to the fatest, best clipped, biggest bulls instead of the most inbred, in his working clothes bulls. You bet, commercial (and seedstock) producers are just doing their own unique thing. In another thread Mk showed 3 bulls; how much semen will be sold on the 3rd bull?

On Advantage, a couple of people are touting the benefits of Longhorn (as DV has done here). How many commercial people are going to use LH? Very few. How many will buy a big, fat Angus? Almost all of them. You bet, you are going to convince me the commercial people are just doing their own thing! No validation required. Very few are going to be proud to show off their inbred bull to their wife, kids and neighbor.

GF,
Good stuff. I really enjoy reading Larry's writings. I also enjoy reading how everyone perceives Larry's writings, and how they apply them for their own personal use.

df wrote:

In another thread Mk showed 3 bulls; how much semen will be sold on the 3rd bull?

...you are going to convince me the commercial people are just doing their own thing! No validation required. Very few are going to be proud to show off their inbred bull to their wife, kids and neighbor.

How about this... what if the owner doesn't care about how much semen he sells, or convincing those "commercial people" who like to show off their bulls to buy his inbred seedstock. What if he happens to be the "commercial people", who applies TruLine principles to his own herd. Then there would be no need to convince anyone...no game...no cons...no great individuals...no BS.

MVCatt wrote:

GF,
Good stuff. I really enjoy reading Larry's writings. I also enjoy reading how everyone perceives Larry's writings, and how they apply them for their own personal use.

df wrote:

In another thread Mk showed 3 bulls; how much semen will be sold on the 3rd bull?

...you are going to convince me the commercial people are just doing their own thing! No validation required. Very few are going to be proud to show off their inbred bull to their wife, kids and neighbor.

How about this... what if the owner doesn't care about how much semen he sells, or convincing those "commercial people" who like to show off their bulls to buy his inbred seedstock. What if he happens to be the "commercial people", who applies TruLine principles to his own herd. Then there would be no need to convince anyone...no game...no cons...no great individuals...no BS.

If you are your own customer, then you can do whatever you want and as already be said on this thread to H@#$ with everybody else. However, if you want to sell bulls to others long term, a different strategy is probably needed.

"Everybody" already has a bull; how is Grassfarmer going to convince them to buy from him? "Sell" the idea. You don't need to BS to do it, you need to educate. I believe that is how LL finally got MK to buy in to the program.

nahhh; wrong df ...I only bought in after everything else had failed...

MKeeney wrote:

nahhh; wrong df ...I only bought in after everything else had failed...

Well it is your story and you can tell it the way you want. However, the story I heard was the first bull from LL "failed" you as well. Only after you went to WY to be educated did you realize the value of the bulls.

Anyway this thread is about Grassfarmer. Good luck with the newsletter.

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

nahhh; wrong df ...I only bought in after everything else had failed...

Well it is your story and you can tell it the way you want. However, the story I heard was the first bull from LL "failed" you as well. Only after you went to WY to be educated did you realize the value of the bulls.

Anyway this thread is about Grassfarmer. Good luck with the newsletter.

we are helping Grassfarmer; but wrong again;the bull didn`t fail; I failed the bull
but your early advice in your first post was just excellent df; and you are, and have been commended for it...you are an important polemicist here; and for that, thx...

MKeeney wrote:

but your early advice in your first post was just excellent df; and you are, and have been commended for it...you are an important polemicist here; and for that, thx...

Agreed Mike, it would be pretty boring if no one debated. Maybe DF could help prep Romney.

Grassfarmer,

Grassfarmer versus grasshoppers....I am so proud that you have grabbed the "bull" by the horns via your own volition. Reliance on groups for validation......Once upon a time about 50 years ago, there were only a few known herds in the U. S. and Canada that salvaged the British breeds from near extinction and most of us know the "groupie reasons" why but turn a blind eye. Of course they are individuals with different opinions CC, but their "methodology" is in unison. What is.....is, and the nature of things is that so often things need to get much worse before they get much better.

There are no endings, only new beginnings. Favoring brief summarys.....Nearly 100 years ago Sewall Wright offered a brief summary to the exceedingly simple principles of a successful breeder, ending with "the only difficulty is in the application". You are not selling a concept, the basis of which has been validated over and over again. So thank you Ian for your application, may there be many more breeding mainstays to come.

However, after 30 years of going public with "TruLine", I can attest to all that DF states in his previous posts under this topic are in fact absolutely right on the mark. But DF is way off the mark when his shortsighted vision ended saying "Very few are going to be proud to show off their inbred bull to their wife, kids and neighbor." That is totally out of context and is absolutely not what will be what you'll see. DV refers to us collectively as dumbasses and indeed we are. Who's to blame....There is only one, singular, e pluribus unum grass root cause for DF's forewarning of grassfarmer's plight..... and that is solely our conforming blind educational institutions fault tryin' to teach the blind to see.

I look forward to Jon & Kendra's assistance in validating this statement under "Reflections by LL" going down the road less traveled in preparation for the next KC gathering. As per my weekly phonecon with the boss this Sunday AM, there'll be free rides for non-registered breeders only in Jack's Moon Rovers navigated by Tom n' Joe with Mike at Mission OutaControl.....registered breeders are elgible for a registry fee subject to DV's prior approval to prevent contamination of our lighter moon atmosphere from genetic rustlers.....hallucinating a million people coming from around the world to attend the "Moonescape Smiley Summit" in the big open spaces.... served with sourdough flapjacks cooked over brandin iron fires burnin' bootlegged moonshine made for drinkin'.... all prepared by Mr. Kentucky Lune Boone in person. I know, I should use shorter sentences and limit each thought to one newsletter, but Tom D's anxious and in a hurry

LL in the vicinity of a big load of f hay filled with leaves and stems searching for that needle to sew up the holes in our educational systems.

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

nahhh; wrong df ...I only bought in after everything else had failed...

Well it is your story and you can tell it the way you want. However, the story I heard was the first bull from LL "failed" you as well. Only after you went to WY to be educated did you realize the value of the bulls.

Anyway this thread is about Grassfarmer. Good luck with the newsletter.

we are helping Grassfarmer; but wrong again;the bull didn`t fail; I failed the bull
but your early advice in your first post was just excellent df; and you are, and have been commended for it...you are an important polemicist here; and for that, thx...

and that is why "failed" is in quotations.

The reason I said they would not be proud is that they will be compared to the pictures seen in the Angus journal and AI directories. Also because MK discussed it in a thread several months ago.

I wonder if MK has figured out why I brought those students to his farm?

My, I've been away for the day and come back to lots of good discussion, thanks folks. To address some of the earlier posts mainly by DF this is about the preferred length of our main article in the Newsletter. It only goes out twice a year so I don't mind a "meaty" article that people can come back to several times if they have to - in a forum like KC obviously we need to go with shorter stories. I do insist on telling a complete story each time although the articles can still be in a series. I had actually covered some of the 4 points you suggested in previous newsletters like the role of purebred breeders etc. This is probably not my last article on this subject as I feel there are whole areas of it which I haven't even touched and my thinking and understanding is constantly changing the more I learn. I need to be a bit careful too as although I am the breed secretary and main breeder of these cattle here there are other members who do not line breed or believe in this stuff. I need to be careful not to hijack the breed/breed publication for my own promotional purposes.

To the later posts I'm not doing this for popularity, I really believe in the cattle and love what I'm getting the chance to do with them genetically. A few bull sales or a lot of bull sales will neither make or break this commercially based operation in the long run. I'd rather sell one bull at $2000 to guys like Hilly that figures out why things aren't working in his commercial operation and goes out seeking a better way to do things than sell 20 bulls at $4000 to dumbasses that are only at the sale because of mainstream BS hype. I think the pride smart guys like Ben and BobH have in these Shoshone cattle once they have seen how they work under their conditions disproves your comment about hiding cattle from the wife and family. I'm more interested in these people with a passion and conviction as customers than guys that boast on superficial things like how fat their bull is, how much money he cost or whether the "breeder" gave out free sorting sticks at his sale.

GF- wordy again I know

Grassfarmer wrote:

My, I've been away for the day and come back to lots of good discussion, thanks folks. To address some of the earlier posts mainly by DF this is about the preferred length of our main article in the Newsletter. It only goes out twice a year so I don't mind a "meaty" article that people can come back to several times if they have to - in a forum like KC obviously we need to go with shorter stories. I do insist on telling a complete story each time although the articles can still be in a series. I had actually covered some of the 4 points you suggested in previous newsletters like the role of purebred breeders etc. This is probably not my last article on this subject as I feel there are whole areas of it which I haven't even touched and my thinking and understanding is constantly changing the more I learn. I need to be a bit careful too as although I am the breed secretary and main breeder of these cattle here there are other members who do not line breed or believe in this stuff. I need to be careful not to hijack the breed/breed publication for my own promotional purposes.

To the later posts I'm not doing this for popularity, I really believe in the cattle and love what I'm getting the chance to do with them genetically. A few bull sales or a lot of bull sales will neither make or break this commercially based operation in the long run. I'd rather sell one bull at $2000 to guys like Hilly that figures out why things aren't working in his commercial operation and goes out seeking a better way to do things than sell 20 bulls at $4000 to dumbasses that are only at the sale because of mainstream BS hype. I think the pride smart guys like Ben and BobH have in these Shoshone cattle once they have seen how they work under their conditions disproves your comment about hiding cattle from the wife and family. I'm more interested in these people with a passion and conviction as customers than guys that boast on superficial things like how fat their bull is, how much money he cost or whether the "breeder" gave out free sorting sticks at his sale.

GF- wordy again I know

grassy I have read this thread at least twice and have came to the conclusion you don't need any help! Dennis posted once that a man should stand up and piss in the center of the toilet and if the noise offended anyone, then so what, be proud of who you are and what you are was his point. I think you know exactly what you want to get across so let'er rip and to hell with worrying about who like's it and who doesn't. I haven't seen where you want to become the spokes person for the whole registry, or become a author, so do what you want and have fun with it and in the end you can stand on the bridge and express yourself as you see fit.