Another new guy

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Leonhardt University, a great place to study, life buzzes by, soon you are old and feeble and you forgot to get your trees planted so you would have a place to sit in the shade.... DV, surrounded by Shoshone Shade Trees, in the vicinity of mainstream diluted heterosis trains and planes and trucks and chevy volts blowing up, all going somewhere, all the time going somewhere, with phones incessantly strapped to their heads, and little tap, tap, devices in their hands, tapping out their every move and motion.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, I have not chased EPD's. I have not chased growth. I have not chased frame. I have bred the type I need to the type I need from the beginning. My bulls are consistent, and they bred consistent. Most of our bulls sell to long time repeat customers that retained daughters out of bulls they bought from us. Not saying your way is wrong but I will stick to my way. Much, much simplier and quicker.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, read the first sentence of Darrh Bullock fire and ice story. Whole thing based on EPD's. Do not believe in Associatin EPD's so did not read any farther. I will stick to my comment. Fire and ice matings, if made, should not have their nuts or ovaries. Peroid! Do you fire and ice your terminal Angus? Third time I have asked this question. Please explain your terminal Angus program.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: MK, read the first sentence of Darrh Bullock fire and ice story. Whole thing based on EPD's. Do not believe in Associatin EPD's so did not read any farther. I will stick to my comment. Fire and ice matings, if made, should not have their nuts or ovaries. Peroid! Do you fire and ice your terminal Angus? Third time I have asked this question. Please explain your terminal Angus program.

I`ll answer {again} about my terminal Angus program, or lack thereof, when you have read the entire article, and tell me why it is wrong from a genetic standpoint...the height of hypocrisy is to not believe in association EPD and then make some up based on association EPD...much like the Powerline group df posted a link to...

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

I don't think Powerline makes up EPDs, they just don't share them with anybody. Maybe like Beef Boosters??

In one post, I read the problems with fire and ice as discussed by LL, then a few post later MK is asking Will what is wrong with fire and ice? Is it or isn't it an issue?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Dennis Voss wrote:: Leonhardt University, a great place to study, life buzzes by, soon you are old and feeble and you forgot to get your trees planted so you would have a place to sit in the shade.... DV, surrounded by Shoshone Shade Trees, in the vicinity of mainstream diluted heterosis trains and planes and trucks and chevy volts blowing up, all going somewhere, all the time going somewhere, with phones incessantly strapped to their heads, and little tap, tap, devices in their hands, tapping out their every move and motion.

DV,
You don`t seem upwardly mobile enough to fit in today`s society or even the mobile cattle breeding society...my goodness man, when is the last time you bought a bull? how are the sale manager`s going to survive with your attitude?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:: I don't think Powerline makes up EPDs, they just don't share them with anybody. Maybe like Beef Boosters??

In one post, I read the problems with fire and ice as discussed by LL, then a few post later MK is asking Will what is wrong with fire and ice? Is it or isn't it an issue?

LL and I don`t necessarily see eye to eye on fire and ice...who is beef boosters? an implant company?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Don't makeup my EPD's. They are in-house and based on my own cowherd. You can use Association EPD's if you want to. I have no problem with that. You can also fire and ice all you want. I won't and don't! Could care less what Darrh Bullock has to say about it. Do a fire and ice story and base it on Association EPD's! Is there a bigger joke?

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Will wrote:: Don't makeup my EPD's. They are in-house and based on my own cowherd. You can use Association EPD's if you want to. I have no problem with that. You can also fire and ice all you want. I won't and don't! Could care less what Darrh Bullock has to say about it. Do a fire and ice story and base it on Association EPD's! Is there a bigger joke?

I have never seen in-house EPDs as consistent (in as tight of a range) as yours!

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: I don't think Powerline makes up EPDs, they just don't share them with anybody. Maybe like Beef Boosters??

In one post, I read the problems with fire and ice as discussed by LL, then a few post later MK is asking Will what is wrong with fire and ice? Is it or isn't it an issue?

LL and I don`t necessarily see eye to eye on fire and ice...who is beef boosters? an implant company?

from powerline website

PowerLine computes EPDs and index values from its own database.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

just a little side question...how many different jobs has Wilkes had in his life? just give a number, please not a full accounting...I don`t want to have to pay for the space Smile

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: I don't think Powerline makes up EPDs, they just don't share them with anybody. Maybe like Beef Boosters??

In one post, I read the problems with fire and ice as discussed by LL, then a few post later MK is asking Will what is wrong with fire and ice? Is it or isn't it an issue?

LL and I don`t necessarily see eye to eye on fire and ice...who is beef boosters? an implant company?

from powerline website

PowerLine computes EPDs and index values from its own database.

But as far as I know, they use their data to do this. In fact I would not be surprised if PIC is not doing this for them as Powerline is connected to ABS and ABS and PIC are under the same umbrella.

This is in contrast to some who literally sit at the kitchen table and decide that their favorite bull, Bull X, will get the "best" EPDs and Bull A will get "these EPDs, but let's not let him look quite as good as Bull X, who happens to be our next herdsire".

The vast dataset of a breed association reduces the variation in EPDs as opposed to the computing them within house from a small dataset.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:: just a little side question...how many different jobs has Wilkes had in his life? just give a number, please not a full accounting...I don`t want to have to pay for the space

Don't have any idea; some have lots of jobs because they are good at lots of things. Others are looking for a job or career that is their niche and sometimes takes a while to find where they fit. Doesn't really matter; the discussion is about the IDEA of fire and ice and providing credible data and not an attack on anybody specifically.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:: just a little side question...how many different jobs has Wilkes had in his life? just give a number, please not a full accounting...I don`t want to have to pay for the space

Don't have any idea; some have lots of jobs because they are good at lots of things. Others are looking for a job or career that is their niche and sometimes takes a while to find where they fit. Doesn't really matter; the discussion is about the IDEA of fire and ice and providing credible data and not an attack on anybody specifically.

who is doing the what is important if we are determining is this just another version of a bull selling scam? it smells like a scam, when the selling premise is built on buying your calves...

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

I don't know if Powerline says they will buy your calves. I don't know of anybody who says if you buy my bulls I will buy your calves. I have seen lots of bull producers tell their customers if you buy my bulls, I will BID on your calves. And that is a very difficult service to implement.

For those bull producers who can implement it, this service can create customer loyalty and result in higher prices.

http://www.schiefelbeinfarms.com/buyback.htm

I think the text is a bit misleading because they don't buy all of their customers calves and in fact have no intention of doing so. The point is to make sure their customers get a fair price for their calves which means they intend to bid on their customers calves but are not necessarily wanting to own them.

Subject: Re: Another new guy Mon May 14, 2012 9:02 am

MKeeney wrote:: ...LL and I don`t necessarily see eye to eye on fire and ice...who is beef boosters? an implant company?

http://www.beefbooster.com/

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

"We test the performance of every animal to determine its genetic merit"

In maternal "strains"

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

what are the most important factors according to IRM data that determine cow-calf producer profitability ? why does Powerline not address those maternal differences...neither does Schiefelbein

How can a cow herd produce consistency when they are the consequence of continual change...a sorted by-product of different types. We seem to be so wrapped up measuring EPD, turning the generations so rapidly to get a

higher set of numbers, that we cannot possibly know what profound effects these cattle being produced en masse may have down the road on the basic unmeasured maternal traits and environmental adaptability.

We have become accustomed to the mind-set that we can cull away our problems- but the more we want each animal to do, the more we sort. Ultimately, a cow-calf producer`s economic losses from the sorted culls has to be deducted from the increased value produced by the keepers. The purebred breeder gets enough premium from his keepers to afford the sort, not so for the commercial producer. So I believe at some point in time, some breeders will have to establish and stick with a type for where it all begins...the cow; others will breed complimentary male lines in a coordinated effort to reduce the sort.

The purpose of a purebred is to offer more predictability or continuity generation after generation. If the objective is to improve product consistency and do it more efficiently without sacrifice to the production end, the industry must look at what the rest of agriculture is doing and forego the persistant habits of the past trying to cram all the beneficial traits into one super parent. The dairy people traded beefiness for milk. The pork people finally accepted the genetic reality that the mother pig could not do her best job and also be the meatiest.
I remain more convinced than ever that the industry will ultimately stabilize, not mongrelize, male and female parent lines designed for hybrid production.

Larry Leonhardt

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

Will wrote:: Don't makeup my EPD's. They are in-house and based on my own cowherd. You can use Association EPD's if you want to. I have no problem with that. You can also fire and ice all you want. I won't and don't! Could care less what Darrh Bullock has to say about it. Do a fire and ice story and base it on Association EPD's! Is there a bigger joke?

Will from a relative joke stand point you are ranking right up there.

How can you know whether or not you care less about what Darrh Bullock says when you have not even taken the time to read the article. I am laughing. I am also beginning to question whether or not you can read, and if you can whether you are capable of a discussion requiring conceptual comprehension.

But I have to hand it to you the funniest thing is your mathematical prowess, calculation of in house EPD's.

I must admit I never would have guessed that you are intimately familiar with Best Linear Unbiased Prediction and able to equate EPD's using a system of simultaneous equations that incorporates information from all known/recorded relatives of the animal by utilizing a relationship matrix that accounts for all relationships among relatives within a herd.

Good for you Will! Very Happy

That is funny!!!

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Ya, I also think it is funny Judas! Now I see it! Yes I seen it! Now I don't. Now that is really, really, funny! Turn up the heat Judas. Now that is really, really, really funny!

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

DF, ever see my bulls? Ever see my hiefer calves? Ever see my cowherd. I know its hard to believe without seeing my cattle. Before the Angus genetic defect mess we would always sell around 75 bull from our 150 head cow herd. Almost always have a few more bull calves than hiefer calves. Peas in a pod. Only difference was age. Can't all be born on the first day of calving season in a 60 to 70 day calving period.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Fire and ice. When I started raising Gelvieh bulls around thiry years ago I started collecting bull sale catologs. One Gelbvieh breeder had several cows that had bulls calves that had 100+ pound birthweights every year. Did not sell worth a dam so he started breeding them to hiefer bulls and if they had a light birthweight bull calf he sold them as hiefer bulls. Big, big time wrecks. Several hiefers calf okay then several big time wrecks. Thats fire and ice! Could care less what Darrh Bullock has to say. Shocked

Might listen to Sandra Bullock though! Wink

That Gelbvieh breeder was snuffed big time. It is really amazing what you can find out when you collect and save bull sale catologs. You can figure out pretty quick who the wanna bees are!

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Will wrote:: DF, ever see my bulls? Ever see my hiefer calves? Ever see my cowherd. I know its hard to believe without seeing my cattle. Before the Angus genetic defect mess we would always sell around 75 bull from our 150 head cow herd. Almost always have a few more bull calves than hiefer calves. Peas in a pod. Only difference was age. Can't all be born on the first day of calving season in a 60 to 70 day calving period.

I don't think I have ever seen your cowherd. I am sure I have driven by your place in ND but I am pretty sure I have never stopped to see you in my travels.

I cannot comment on the cattle as I have not seen them at all. I do think it is possible to comment on the EPDs you supplied. Dylan did a nice job of summing it up and I am pretty sure your cattle are not as uniform as the EPDs would suggest.

I am not accusing you of making up the EPDs at the kitchen table although I think it is important that buyers know who is supplying the EPDs. I would think most would think they are supplied by the breed association and thus give some level of trust to the EPDs if they assume a person trained in computing genetic evaluations had spent considerable time with the data. However, if the EPDs were determined by what you believe, that is no problem IF YOU TELL your customers the EPDs are within herd and YOU PUT YOUR NAME on them.

If a buyer has problems, he may call a breed association and assume it is the breed association's fault. They tell the buyer that they don't even know who you are as you are not a member nor register any animals with them. Now the buyer is even more made because he feels he has been deceived by the producer. Has this ever happen? Yes, although it may not have happened to you. I have been on the receiving end of that type of call.

I think Ohlde does that with his Angus II. The EPDs on these cattle have "OCC EPDs" above them in the sale catalog. Are they correct? i don't know but it would appear Ohlde is taking some responsibility for these numbers.

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

This problem is, in part, caused by the stalling of the information era.

The acceptance of segregation of performance information by breed through the Bull Tests, Associations, etc.

It is a Quo mandate disguised as cutting edge change.

Then comes in the distrust, which is understandable.

I really don't care who calculates the figures. I doubt it is any worse than feeding them to meet performance standards, or turning in weights that fit what they think buyers want to see.

Until someone gives a damn about the costs in $, genetic tradeoffs resulting in inferiority and problems, health, etc., Who cares? It is all crap if used for marketing rather than breeding. When the Foxx is in the henhouse, it is sure good incentive to go pro and get out of the old hen and capon comedy club- standing in their own litter - con game this has become.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Dylan Biggs wrote:

Will wrote:: Don't makeup my EPD's. They are in-house and based on my own cowherd. You can use Association EPD's if you want to. I have no problem with that. You can also fire and ice all you want. I won't and don't! Could care less what Darrh Bullock has to say about it. Do a fire and ice story and base it on Association EPD's! Is there a bigger joke?

Will from a relative joke stand point you are ranking right up there.

How can you know whether or not you care less about what Darrh Bullock says when you have not even taken the time to read the article. I am laughing. I am also beginning to question whether or not you can read, and if you can whether you are capable of a discussion requiring conceptual comprehension.

But I have to hand it to you the funniest thing is your mathematical prowess, calculation of in house EPD's.

I must admit I never would have guessed that you are intimately familiar with Best Linear Unbiased Prediction and able to equate EPD's using a system of simultaneous equations that incorporates information from all known/recorded relatives of the animal by utilizing a relationship matrix that accounts for all relationships among relatives within a herd.

Good for you Will! Very Happy

That is funny!!!

Dylan,
don`t you just love the guy...no need for genetic principles or formulas,... but unlike the mainstream, , no point in BS`ing us with technicalities, there`s no pretense, he just does it, tells us it`s good, and shows us pretty pictures...good enough I say; I think I `d buy a bull from him anyday before I would those who go to great lengths to tell us how honest and good they do everything...like 26 measures and idiot proof guarantees?
I had to laugh at the "sales managers" telling Larkota to put his money where his mouth was on Advantage; what a joke...I think these sales managers should put their money where their mouth is on all these cattle and cattle breeders they embellish...if the owner won`t settle up on cattle not living up to footnote status, the sales manager pays...it seems the sales manager`s real job is to do the lying and let the owner maintain a half clear conscience...