2 Questions - Parasite Control

My first question is this.
Is there an animal rights issue with a lack of parasite control?

The second question is this.
If you do not practice fly control and it affects your neighbors' cattle and operation adversely, are you liable?

I posed this question over at 5bar. In my opinion, it would be just another issue the hyper-sensitive, on-the-look, animal rights groups such as PETA would latch onto in a heartbeat. Not so many years ago radical animal rights groups in Europe were trying to shut down AI operations on the premise that it denied the cow a form of natural pleasure. So if you say to yourself, wow that's absurd, think again. Does anyone have the parasite information from Pharo Cattle Co.? I would be curious what their policy on parasite, worm & fly control is. All it would take is something that is an easy stretch for my imagination and yours, an excessively fly covered cow or bull could produce quite a story for the lamestream media if the producer was going around tooting about using no control products which is what the Pharo Cattle Co. seems to do.

Concerning my second question, I know for a fact, if one neighbor does not pour their cattle to control heel flies, it drives all the rest of the cattle in the neighborhood crazy in the early part of the summer.

That is an interesting question on flies. I guess maybe PETA would be more concerned with organo -phosphates and probably see pouring or applying a fly tag mistreatment.

On another note, how soon will it be mandated that male animals have pain killers prior to castration?

This topic treads through some precarious waters, Dennis, gets a little involved in personal/property rights......could turn downright political, OT run for cover.

My opinion, stay out of other peoples management. If their flies, fly over you, shoot 'em, haul the carcasses back to their front door. Seriously, I do not like to meddle in their affairs, if they go broke, lose all their cows, goats, chickens, sheep, whatever, so be it. If obvious abuse is occuring, that gets tricky, but economics will weed out, the ill prepared. Animal rights folks piss me off, you know, I think most folks need to be shot at least once in their life, some just need better placement of the projectile.

I do not want big brother, micro managing my day to day life. Some animals are weak, some are strong, some prone to parasites, some not. If all my animals are under duress, treat them, if only some maybe treat them, if economically feasible. Take these goats I have, after two years, I still cannot guess which one is going to die next. Some you could de-worm every week, and they would still go eat a rose bush, while falling over dead. The cost of processing smaller animals, makes it not a viable decision, monetarily. Eddie has a mess of sheep, he may be able to tell you otherwise on them, but for a $60 goat, anything extra, cuts the profit really quick, a $1000 feeder calf, is a horse of a different color.

keyboar not workin properly later

Dennis,
I think Bootheel is on to something...just be patient and the flies will go away when the cattle go away...remember your young neighbor who was going to show you ole ranchers what a difference a 3 frame bull make in his herd...

What about keeping cows outdoors in below zero temps??? Some of you had be getting some blankets to put on your cows like a cross town neighbor of mine does for his horses when night temps get close to freezing. Making me look inhumane.

Quote :

Eddie has a mess of sheep, he may be able to tell you otherwise on them, but for a $60 goat, anything extra, cuts the profit really quick, a $1000 feeder calf, is a horse of a different color.

I deworm by taking the wormy type to the barn. I have not wormed many but their need for worming sealed their fate. I've had 2 adults and about 8 young ones (former residents) that needed worming. Don't tell Robert Mac but I don't worm any of the sheep I use for breeding stock. He might think I'm selecting for resistance!

Eddie, any sheeps available, say about April 2?

Bootheel wrote:

Eddie, any sheeps available, say about April 2?

I too would like to know the answer to that question...

No sheep available. Maybe some next fall.

If the trend does not shift back toward individual rights trumping the wishes/agandas pushed by special interest groups, unions, government ... We won't have to worry about private property or day to day management decisions.

so appropiate Kent...I sure don`t want to talk political parties etc here, it`s about as useless as the type debate at 4.9y, but by chance, I came in here mad as hell tonight because I just recieved about the third call about buying a couple of bred heifers with "cost share" money, needed epds on the bulls bred too etc, pelvic measured heifers by vet etc, and no telling how many times to sign your name, attesting to some BS that keeps county agents and beef specialists in a job... these entitlements are the brainchild of the people we elect to run farm organizations, not profession pols; who do endorse it...to be endorsed in return...and endowed...
it is a joke..trust me, your independence will be at risk every time your beef association meets...

Poor Mike, coming in mad, beat down, downtrodden, havin' to stand in line at the soup kitchen, while the gals get out out of their Lexus' , stroll down the red carpet, and not a durn one of them smokin'.......a cigarette that is. Meanwhile the poor ol' poke at the Spotted Dog, just sold a BULL of all things, pulled up to the fence, there he is.......Looks good to me, Can I pay now and you hold 'em till June? ......Yip. Deal done, no paperwork, no measure, no hassle. Dang if life ain't good.....if it weren't for them taxes, that is.

Gregory Walker wrote:

Bootheel wrote:

Eddie, any sheeps available, say about April 2?

I too would like to know the answer to that question...

You boys lookin' for a date to the after-sale party?

Tom D wrote:

Gregory Walker wrote:

Bootheel wrote:

Eddie, any sheeps available, say about April 2?

I too would like to know the answer to that question...

You boys lookin' for a date to the after-sale party?

touche... Might want to diversify the operation a bit. Had about 450 breeding ewes in the eighties... Don't really miss them, but wouldn't mind having some lambs to sell at the prices they bring these days.

Grandpa would never let us sell the sheep while he was alive-- as he said they were what always got him thru the tough times...

I haven't had any sheep (or goats) for several years--but sure have been thinking about getting a few again...The last few moist years have allowed the weeds to take over the empty corrals and lots during the summer- and may get enough for some weed control....

Dennis Voss wrote:

My first question is this.
Is there an animal rights issue with a lack of parasite control?

Does not seem to be one as of yet, I am guessing because of a lack of awareness on the topic. Never even occurred to those PETA types. Probably just a matter of time though. I am sure de-horning and branding will hit the management practice radar screen quite aways ahead of lice, flies and warble control. The good thing about it is non chemical alternatives are an option for those whose programs exclude chemical parasiticides.

Welcome along Dylan, nice to have another Canuckian on board

Grassfarmer wrote:

Welcome along Dylan, nice to have another Canuckian on board

Grassfarmer,
In case Dylan might think us a bit too crazy here, please explain that we have a lot of fun here...sometimes even at our own expense!

I've had some big time humor gatherings with various Canadians, last good one was in Great Falls, Mt. It centered on Horse meat in a 4Bs restaurant. I specialize in kamikaze humor Dylan and my credibility on breeding cattle is 0, so as the the Sue happy thug says on a obsolete cattle blog " Please tell me when you weigh your cows, how much they weigh and why, given your f-f-forage b-b-base"

Grassfarmer wrote:

Welcome along Dylan, nice to have another Canuckian on board

Thanks GF, I just stumbled on this sight saw your moniker and figured it must be a sight with some reasonable discussion.

Dennis Voss wrote:

I've had some big time humor gatherings with various Canadians, last good one was in Great Falls, Mt. It centered on Horse meat in a 4Bs restaurant. I specialize in kamikaze humor Dylan and my credibility on breeding cattle is 0, so as the the Sue happy thug says on a obsolete cattle blog " Please tell me when you weigh your cows, how much they weigh and why, given your f-f-forage b-b-base"

Dennis, when I weigh my cows I will tell you what they weigh and why given since last years rain we actually have a forage base again.

Why does this thread give me visions of Capital One commercials with the warriors and the goats???????

Dylan, how's life going in the Great White North? Hope you and yours are doing well!
Got to go out and watch my grass...I mean f-f-forage...grow!

Robert, I thought I'd quote from an article in a Canadian Charolais publication by a practising vet in this province as I'm sure you'll get a kick out of it. The article is entitled "Maximising growth of suckled calves" and advocates basically two things - hormone implants and deworming cattle. ".....the cost of endectocides has come down over the last few years. We should now be using these products more than ever. Even if none or a very low level of internal parasites is detected 10 or more pounds of gain can be expected over the summer" "Implanted beef is perfectly safe so we can consume it with confidence" (IMHO some European research begs to differ..) "Whenever you are processing get into the habit of asking yourself - is it time to implant?""Using a pour on or injectable endectocide at turnout is another procedure proven to increase weight gains on calves. By taking the worm load and lice load down to close to zero, buildup will be minimal over the summer maximising growth" "if calves are healthier and not parasite riddled, their immune system is healthier so other diseases such as pneumonia and scours are less prevalent" on and on it goes.

Talk about junk science - when did vets become paid pimps for the pharmaceutical companies?
Here would be a few of my questions to the vet.
We can still expect 10lbs of extra gain after dosing an animal that has non-detectable parasite levels - Really - how come? Is there an economic threshold calculation involved or simply a desire to sell more drugs?
Do you understand the life cycle of parasitic worms? if you do why would you advocate a "pre-turnout" treatment of cattle that were treated going into winter? With -40C, deep permanent snow cover for several months where do you think the new worms were hiding if you already killed the ones in the cows in the fall?
A healthier immune system may well make scours less prevalent but most calves scours in this part of the world occur long before the pre- turn out treatment would take place. I would challenge him to provide proof of what % of the calves he treats for scours etc (the huge majority under being 1 month old typically) are "parasite riddled". I'd better quit now but guys like this drive me crazy.

GF, if all research provided a list of sponsors and grant money providers, it would make more sense.

RobertMac wrote:

Why does this thread give me visions of Capital One commercials with the warriors and the goats???????

Dylan, how's life going in the Great White North? Hope you and yours are doing well!
Got to go out and watch my grass...I mean f-f-forage...grow!

RobertMac, we are doing our best to endure the most authentic winter in 20 plus years from a snow stand point at least. Had a tremendous growth of grass last year and could have grazed out all winter. Brought the cows home mid January, and have been doing bale grazing. As soon as the snow dissapates the cows can go back to grazing.

Here are a few shots of trailing the cows home to the south end.


My priceless little trixie that took charge of the drag the entire 8 miles.

A Mule Deer on his way to the stack yard, easier to get at then the grass.

Lots of Snowy Owls around this winter, and shorteared owls, I don`t think I have ever seen such an abundance of mice.


And the sky has kept us entertained with lots of awesome sunrises and sunsets.



-24 Celcius here again this morning, at least no wind. I keep reminding myself that all this stored water is going to make for great grass come spring eventually.