genotype evaluation

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:: Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?

superior in what?

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?

superior in what?

Typically in reproductive performance and to a lessor extent, weaning weight and milk production.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?

superior in what?

Typically in reproductive performance and to a lessor extent, weaning weight and milk production.

would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

"would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?"

Isn't that what EPD's do? Isn't accuracy an indicator of consistency?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Keystone wrote:: "would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?"

Isn't that what EPD's do? Isn't accuracy an indicator of consistency?

NO

Guest

HELL NO!

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:: Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.

Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Guest

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.

Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Shouldn't parentstock breeders?
Maybe instead of "measure" we should say that parentstock breeders should "evaluate" the genotypes? And by parentstock breeders I am referring to those that are creating the parentstock, not those that utilize parentstock for commercial crossing.

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:39 pm

Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

from Larry

Maybe instead of "measure" we should say that parentstock breeders should "evaluate" the genotypes? And by parentstock breeders I am referring to those that are creating the parentstock, not those that utilize parentstock for commercial crossing.

Thank you Dwight for helping to make what seems so complicated and difficult to understand - so simple.

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:07 pm

Quote :: We have an extraordinary event coming up shortly on Dec 4th

I have to ask Larry, what makes it extraordinary?

Guest

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Just a suggeastion, but one "acid test" can be this:
Brand every calf while still on the cow.
Is there anything there that embarrasses you?
Is there something that will be embarrassing for you to have your brand on for the whole world to see in the future?
If so, accelerate it into the food chain by bypassing the breeding pastures.
A brand will firm up one's commitment to breeding acceptable cattle and can be directly correlated to their integrity.

Breed for what you want and stick your brand on every calf.
Of course this will not work if someone is without conscious.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Just a suggeastion, but one "acid test" can be this:
Brand every calf while still on the cow.
Is there anything there that embarrasses you?
Is there something that will be embarrassing for you to have your brand on for the whole world to see in the future?
If so, accelerate it into the food chain by bypassing the breeding pastures.
A brand will firm up one's commitment to breeding acceptable cattle and can be directly correlated to their integrity.

Breed for what you want and stick your brand on every calf.
Of course this will not work if someone is without conscious.

Dwight,
you really haven`t inbred much, have you? Do you think the whole world is a proper and capable judge of a breeding animal? I don`t...

Guest

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Mike,
What is your answer to this?

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:35 pm

Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

Guest

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

What keeps you from looking at it like a crap shoot, Mark?

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:55 pm

Quote :: But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he

No disagreement with that at all but had better always have a calf crop around for proof? What about all the females?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

but since you or the whole world never liked him, he never got used to have any progeny to make him look better, did he?

Guest

MKeeney wrote:

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:

Mark Day wrote:: Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

but since you or the whole world never liked him, he never got used to have any progeny to make him look better, did he?

Call me an idiot, but my lifetime is too short to take that many chances.

Maybe I am too much of a coward to use a bull I can't stand looking at, but I wasn't afraid to share one of my "filters." Perhaps I should keep my other filters to myself.

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Keep them coming Dwight. Our problem is we don't have enough farms and enough cattle to try some of those animals to build up our confidence that it might be alright thing to do or hide our stupidity. Why do you think I traveled to Nancy yesterday to get 2 bulls but I have to admit I likely have 4 at home more attractive than the one I paid for but I doubt they are nearly as good.

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.

Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Purebred breeders largely record observations such as weaning weight and the resulting genetic evaluations are largely the result of additive genes. Certainly higher accuracy bulls have had a fair comparison of their breeding value.

I seriously doubt there is much hybrid vigor in crossing lines within a breed and certainly not as much as crossing breeds of cattle.

Subject: Re: genotype evaluation Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:51 pm

Mark how much better do you feel Mikes bull is than your bulls and why?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:: Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.

Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Purebred breeders largely record observations such as weaning weight and the resulting genetic evaluations are largely the result of additive genes. Certainly higher accuracy bulls have had a fair comparison of their breeding value.

I seriously doubt there is much hybrid vigor in crossing lines within a breed and certainly not as much as crossing breeds of cattle.

so measuring phenotype gives us the genotype? how would you account for a 25% IBC in a so called "GENETIC EVALUATION" using phenotype? if there`s no hybrid vigor in outcrossing within a breed, why don`t more REGISTERED breeders linebreed instead of constantly searching for outcrosses? what is a breed Dennis? no need for them anymore? put them all back together, and the next step is to re-select new breeds? define hybrid vigor?