Another new guy

I found this forum a few days ago while researching a bull to breed some heifers to (Cedar Ridge). And then I happened upon the Reflections thread and my wife hasn't seen me since...

Then I phoned Mike Keeney. He told me to join the group and I said I am not witty enough and can't draw, he talked me into it anyway.


A little about myself...

I'm 30, married, 15 month old twins, run about 400 commercial angus cows. We calve mid-March through late May. Heifers are bred for 45 days to start 2 weeks ahead of the cows. Cows are bred for 60 d to calve starting April 1. 1st and 2nd calf cows are run at my place, which is 4 mi from Dad's place, where the old cows are. The young cows are run separate until we wean their second calf. We use natural service on everything but the heifers. Dad used to AI everything but as the herd grew it was too much work. He has an insurance business that takes most of his time, so I do about 80-90% of the work. I have hired part-time help in the summer to get the hay put up. Every year my share in the herd grows as I keep back more heifers. I own about 20% right now. Of the 400, 100 hd I have on share with a neighbor who gives me free rein on management decisions. Back to calving...since we have cattle in two locations I have been lobbying pretty hard to calve later. This year has been a taste of what that could look like, as our weather has been more like typical May and June rather than March and April. Quite the opposite of last year, in which we had near record snowfall and every day was a struggle.

We run our cows like a lot of commercial guys in the area. We feed as little hay as possible. Two things we try to capitalize on are cornstalks for fall/winter grazing (with the open winter we kept the old cows on stalks until Feb 27 with no supplement) and using the low-quality hay we produce if the snow is too deep to graze. Our summer pastures are a mix of native & introduced grasses. We have a rotational grazing system in which we move cattle on average every 5-10 days. We have 4 breeding groups - heifers (100 hd), 2's (75), 3's (70) and old cows (260). The logistics of this arrangement work out well due to the location and sizes of different pastures.

Our current bull inventory is about 2/3 Angus and 1/3 Balancer. I bought a bunch of balancer bulls this spring because I decided to try some crossbreeding for all the reasons the "experts" talk about. It seemed like the safest way to do it. I don't know if it was a smart move or not. We have been buying bulls with good carcass numbers for many years. The calves we finish usually do well on the grid, and do fairly well in the feedlot.

I'm here because I am not happy about the direction of the cow herd. The maternal traits we used to have are leaving faster that I care to think about. I had not heard of the maternal/terminal (or paternal) idea, and it has been really interesting reading. I'm hoping to continue learning so I can start moving my herd in a meaningful direction.

LCP wrote:

I phoned Mike Keeney. He told me to join the group and I said I am not witty enough and can't draw, he talked me into it anyway.

Welcome! You can be on my team. We're the "little wit, can't draw team". You're not related to LDP are you? You're on the right track here. If you know enough to know the maternal traits you used to see are disappearing, you are ahead of most.

Jack, team captain of the Little wit, can't draw team.

LCP welcome aboard the SS KEENEYS CORNER where Admiral LL and capt Mike are leading us to where no man has gone before. A year ago i thought i was a dim wit from the 4.9 and now i am little more than a smart ass. You will find out with this bunch the shell cracks pretty quick. I cant draw or take a picture for crap........ so don't let the small s**t get you down. Now i just hope mike doesn't send me some of those fat crayons in a 8 pack, instead of one of them autographed sorting sticks so i can tell if i am coming or going. Have fun and leter rip. W.T

Quote :

You're not related to LDP are you?

Not that I am aware of, but I don't know who he/she is so I guess I don't know.

LCP wrote:

Quote :

You're not related to LDP are you?

Not that I am aware of, but I don't know who he/she is so I guess I don't know.

No Jack, this individual is not an acronym, or cousin of LDP, or CSP, or CRP. See there, Jack does have some wit.


Bootheel, not kin to loan defiency payments

Jack, looks like I'll be a bench warmer on your "little wit, can't draw" team...besides I am just barely enough of a farmer to know what LDP is in the first place. And I needed to set the bar low for my ability to get the witty comments...can't have you regulars expecting too much of the new guy.

Speaking of bench warmers, and it probably happens to you ''Western Windy'' types quite often, but a first for me; the wife bought a new painting of some pretty flowers, they're pink, and the wind blew it off the bathroom wall Sunday and broke my toilet seat. I ain't never had the wind break a toilet seat before now. So now I either need a bench warmer or new seat.


Bootheel, sure glad I pee standing up

Welcome LCP, don't worry about the witty part....You will develop some wit around these guys.
I do more reading than posting, and I can be witty at times, used to have a saying "In a war of wits,
you are unarmed" but these guys are pretty good. Besides the witty comments, there is some
interesting dialog here.......Gets you to thinking.
DM

Sorry to hear about your toilet seat Joe. That's alot of wind in one bathroom. Must of been eating cabbage.

Sorry about the LDP joke LCP. We bought this ranch in 1999 and it had a 1000 ac. of farm ground on it that was being share cropped so I learned about LDP's. We've since put it back to cheatgrass.

What is your hope with the Balancer bulls? As a purebred guy I'm always interested in crossbreeding programs with a specific goal in mind.

My advice to all you newbies is the same. Just bail in with both feet and go like hell and if we're lucky you just might teach us something along the way. You all bring more to the table than you probably realize.

Jack, in the vicinity of the Pumpkin Crick bridge.

Quote :

What is your hope with the Balancer bulls? As a purebred guy I'm always interested in crossbreeding programs with a specific goal in mind.

I was afraid someone would ask that. I have really struggled with my bull selection since I came back to the ranch. Every year I would get done buying my bulls (usually Angus) and then read a dozen articles that sung the praises of crossbreeding. So last year I bought a couple balancers just to make myself feel better, believing I was making progress. This year I planned on buying one or two more, but one thing led to another and I came home with 5. I honestly had no good plan on how to use them. I guess I wanted to improve yield grade a little on the steers we feed out, and improve longevity in the females through heterosis. (I am not sure crossbreeding is necessary to get longevity though. I think Mike said something in the Reflections thread about crossbred cows being the "quick fix" as opposed to a real genetic improvement in making good cows.) So, I bought the hybrid bulls to get just enough heterosis to make myself feel better. I would have probably fooled around a few more years, eventually replacing most of the Angus bulls with balancers. Heckuva plan, huh? Its embarrassing, really, my lack of planning/direction.

Why balancer and not Simangus or whatever? No good reason. One of the outfits we have bought a lot of Angus bulls from has raised Gelbviehs since the 70's and so I was familiar with their program and had some idea of what to expect from their cattle. And the best (actually worst) part is that I have not always been thrilled with the feet & longevity of their bulls. But they are good friends and do stand behind their cattle...for the first year anyway...I know that is not a good reason to keep buying bulls there. How many demerits for that?

I have developed the opinion that there is probably as much variation within any given breed as there is between most mainstream breeds anymore, so that's why I didn't concern myself with which breed to use. Maybe I just tell myself that to make me feel better too.

That being said, I now have a plan. I have enough balancers to run them exclusively with my 2 and 3 yr olds this summer, so my plan is to have that be my terminal cross for now. I'll put my Angus bulls on the old cows and AI the heifers to Angus bulls with strong maternal traits (I'm leaning towards Cedar Ridge and something else, haven't decided yet...but I know better than to ask about which bull on this forum ) I plan to select replacements from the old cows and heifers. I figured I can avoid some mistakes by selecting replacements from the old cows because they should sorta be a known commodity by the time they turn 4. I don't really want to keep heifers out of first calvers but I'll take my chances if I know the sire is acceptable. I plan to start selecting better maternal bulls to use on the old cows and perhaps go to a full blood continental breed (gelbveih or otherwise) to use on the young cows.

The thing that scares me a little is reducing the number of heifer calves I am willing to select replacements from by 35%. The idea of using linebred maternal bulls, or at least maternal bulls with consistent maternal type in their pedigree, helps calm that fear some. The trouble is finding the herd that produces said genetics. I am making progress though. Ironically, had it not been for Genex leasing Cedar Ridge I might not have ended up here...maybe the worst thing they could have done for their business because now I know the world isn't flat, and I'm that much less interested in the rest of the bulls in their barn.

It is really the first time I've had a sense of direction with my breeding program. I didn't feel like the current trend of +50 milk +130 YW -$30 EN type sires was something I wanted to follow but I didn't really know for sure what to do to improve from where we are. You guys will really love this...I was starting to wonder if the way of thinking was the only alternative, but breathed a sigh of relief when I found out it was not...good thing I read more than just the newsletter.

Now I at least have an idea. Not sure how good the idea is...but I feel a lot more confident in it than my previous [lack of] direction.

I'd welcome any and all comments and critiques, witty or otherwise.

LCP, in the vicinity of enjoying the mud on the outside of the pickup rather than the dust on the inside. (did I do that right???)

Interesting reading LCP, we don't have much in common with the cattle we are breeding but I can sure relate to your comment about the confidence it gives you when you decide on a direction, and you read on here the comments from all these guys that I respect that what you are doing maybe isn't as crazy as what the mainstream "breeders" would tell you it was. It's been an absolutely exhilarating experience for me absorbing the stuff I read hear on KC and putting some of it into practice.

Seems like a good plan to me Luke; it doesn`t matter so much the names, or even the breeds, as the types you fit into your plan...the first step is admitting and learning the difference between maternal and terminal...so glad to have you aboard here...I`m going to arm twist just a little for you on that group meeting with LL you suggested for July...do you think young fellows could stand still for two hours of philosophy while seeing only one cow in front of them? I used to have a problem with that; anxious to get among the herd and find the best "individuals", but now herd philosophy is always preferred..

I think most of the group is interested enough in cattle production to handle it. The program has required some classroom time, so its not as though we spend every meeting touring ranches and seeing cattle. We have seen cattle though, and in a variety of scenarios - grass fed, backgrouding lots, super-duper high performance show cattle. I think the group is open minded enough to hear what he has to say. there are a couple of guys whose families are mainstream seedstock breeders or work for mainstream breeders. It might be a little uncomfortable for them, but I don't know where on the spectrum they are necessarily...maybe they are on the brink of change. Like I said on the phone I am not in charge of arranging the trip but I can suggest it and leave it up to the group leaders to make it happen. I am scheming on how I can get to Miles City in August anyway, and I think some of the group might be interested in coming to that as well if allowed to. It's a great group of people. Most are under 35, all kinds of backgrounds - some working with their folks, some all on their own, some don't have anything but want to get started in cattle, etc. It's a group that wants to learn. We all had to apply to get into the program, so it isn't like a college class...we're not here for a degree, rather to educate ourselves.

LCP wrote:

I think most of the group is interested enough in cattle production to handle it. The program has required some classroom time, so its not as though we spend every meeting touring ranches and seeing cattle. We have seen cattle though, and in a variety of scenarios - grass fed, backgrouding lots, super-duper high performance show cattle. I think the group is open minded enough to hear what he has to say. there are a couple of guys whose families are mainstream seedstock breeders or work for mainstream breeders. It might be a little uncomfortable for them, but I don't know where on the spectrum they are necessarily...maybe they are on the brink of change. Like I said on the phone I am not in charge of arranging the trip but I can suggest it and leave it up to the group leaders to make it happen. I am scheming on how I can get to Miles City in August anyway, and I think some of the group might be interested in coming to that as well if allowed to. It's a great group of people. Most are under 35, all kinds of backgrounds - some working with their folks, some all on their own, some don't have anything but want to get started in cattle, etc. It's a group that wants to learn. We all had to apply to get into the program, so it isn't like a college class...we're not here for a degree, rather to educate ourselves.

Miles City in August would be great...a half day visiting and questioning the Research Center staff on the Line Ones and other breeding projects; Friday night meal at the Range Rider Museum will be a chance to visit with each other and exchange ideas, and Saturday...well, Jack is already giving you ideas of what a visit to his place will be...and see the ideas fleshed out in the cattle...and anytime during any of this, LL can give a 30 minute spontaneous lecture ...sure hope you can make it; it is you young guys that can make a long term difference. Bought some hay off a young guy yesterday; a vo-ag teacher in waiting, just had bought himself a couple of mainstream bulls without the least thought that it was anything but the correct way of doing things...change will come from outside the education system for thinking is not allowed there; instead, it`s repeat after me....

LCP wrote:

Quote :

What is your hope with the Balancer bulls? As a purebred guy I'm always interested in crossbreeding programs with a specific goal in mind.

I was afraid someone would ask that. I have really struggled with my bull selection since I came back to the ranch. Every year I would get done buying my bulls (usually Angus) and then read a dozen articles that sung the praises of crossbreeding. So last year I bought a couple balancers just to make myself feel better, believing I was making progress. This year I planned on buying one or two more, but one thing led to another and I came home with 5. I honestly had no good plan on how to use them. I guess I wanted to improve yield grade a little on the steers we feed out, and improve longevity in the females through heterosis. (I am not sure crossbreeding is necessary to get longevity though. I think Mike said something in the Reflections thread about crossbred cows being the "quick fix" as opposed to a real genetic improvement in making good cows.) So, I bought the hybrid bulls to get just enough heterosis to make myself feel better. I would have probably fooled around a few more years, eventually replacing most of the Angus bulls with balancers. Heckuva plan, huh? Its embarrassing, really, my lack of planning/direction.

Why balancer and not Simangus or whatever? No good reason. One of the outfits we have bought a lot of Angus bulls from has raised Gelbviehs since the 70's and so I was familiar with their program and had some idea of what to expect from their cattle. And the best (actually worst) part is that I have not always been thrilled with the feet & longevity of their bulls. But they are good friends and do stand behind their cattle...for the first year anyway...I know that is not a good reason to keep buying bulls there. How many demerits for that?

I have developed the opinion that there is probably as much variation within any given breed as there is between most mainstream breeds anymore, so that's why I didn't concern myself with which breed to use. Maybe I just tell myself that to make me feel better too.

That being said, I now have a plan. I have enough balancers to run them exclusively with my 2 and 3 yr olds this summer, so my plan is to have that be my terminal cross for now. I'll put my Angus bulls on the old cows and AI the heifers to Angus bulls with strong maternal traits (I'm leaning towards Cedar Ridge and something else, haven't decided yet...but I know better than to ask about which bull on this forum ) I plan to select replacements from the old cows and heifers. I figured I can avoid some mistakes by selecting replacements from the old cows because they should sorta be a known commodity by the time they turn 4. I don't really want to keep heifers out of first calvers but I'll take my chances if I know the sire is acceptable. I plan to start selecting better maternal bulls to use on the old cows and perhaps go to a full blood continental breed (gelbveih or otherwise) to use on the young cows.

The thing that scares me a little is reducing the number of heifer calves I am willing to select replacements from by 35%. The idea of using linebred maternal bulls, or at least maternal bulls with consistent maternal type in their pedigree, helps calm that fear some. The trouble is finding the herd that produces said genetics. I am making progress though. Ironically, had it not been for Genex leasing Cedar Ridge I might not have ended up here...maybe the worst thing they could have done for their business because now I know the world isn't flat, and I'm that much less interested in the rest of the bulls in their barn.

It is really the first time I've had a sense of direction with my breeding program. I didn't feel like the current trend of +50 milk +130 YW -$30 EN type sires was something I wanted to follow but I didn't really know for sure what to do to improve from where we are. You guys will really love this...I was starting to wonder if the way of thinking was the only alternative, but breathed a sigh of relief when I found out it was not...good thing I read more than just the newsletter.

Now I at least have an idea. Not sure how good the idea is...but I feel a lot more confident in it than my previous [lack of] direction.

I'd welcome any and all comments and critiques, witty or otherwise.

LCP, in the vicinity of enjoying the mud on the outside of the pickup rather than the dust on the inside. (did I do that right???)

You might want to talk to Robert Groom about his Just Right bull for AI.

http://www.tullyfergus.com/herd-bull-alley.htm

Why Balancer bulls? Gosh I was hoping you would say to get some maternal heterosis in you cow herd.

Will wrote:

Why Balancer bulls? Gosh I was hoping you would say to get some maternal heterosis in you cow herd.

yes, I see that opportunity for maternal heterosis exist right here in my back door...

Composite Commercial Bull - $1400 (London)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SimAngus Bull for sale, 12 mo old, low birth weight genetics



whatdaya think Will?

LCP wrote:

Quote :

What is your hope with the Balancer bulls? As a purebred guy I'm always interested in crossbreeding programs with a specific goal in mind.

I was afraid someone would ask that. I have really struggled with my bull selection since I came back to the ranch. Every year I would get done buying my bulls (usually Angus) and then read a dozen articles that sung the praises of crossbreeding. So last year I bought a couple balancers just to make myself feel better, believing I was making progress. This year I planned on buying one or two more, but one thing led to another and I came home with 5. I honestly had no good plan on how to use them. I guess I wanted to improve yield grade a little on the steers we feed out, and improve longevity in the females through heterosis. (I am not sure crossbreeding is necessary to get longevity though. I think Mike said something in the Reflections thread about crossbred cows being the "quick fix" as opposed to a real genetic improvement in making good cows.) So, I bought the hybrid bulls to get just enough heterosis to make myself feel better. I would have probably fooled around a few more years, eventually replacing most of the Angus bulls with balancers. Heckuva plan, huh? Its embarrassing, really, my lack of planning/direction.

Why balancer and not Simangus or whatever? No good reason. One of the outfits we have bought a lot of Angus bulls from has raised Gelbviehs since the 70's and so I was familiar with their program and had some idea of what to expect from their cattle. And the best (actually worst) part is that I have not always been thrilled with the feet & longevity of their bulls. But they are good friends and do stand behind their cattle...for the first year anyway...I know that is not a good reason to keep buying bulls there. How many demerits for that?

I have developed the opinion that there is probably as much variation within any given breed as there is between most mainstream breeds anymore, so that's why I didn't concern myself with which breed to use. Maybe I just tell myself that to make me feel better too.

That being said, I now have a plan. I have enough balancers to run them exclusively with my 2 and 3 yr olds this summer, so my plan is to have that be my terminal cross for now. I'll put my Angus bulls on the old cows and AI the heifers to Angus bulls with strong maternal traits (I'm leaning towards Cedar Ridge and something else, haven't decided yet...but I know better than to ask about which bull on this forum ) I plan to select replacements from the old cows and heifers. I figured I can avoid some mistakes by selecting replacements from the old cows because they should sorta be a known commodity by the time they turn 4. I don't really want to keep heifers out of first calvers but I'll take my chances if I know the sire is acceptable. I plan to start selecting better maternal bulls to use on the old cows and perhaps go to a full blood continental breed (gelbveih or otherwise) to use on the young cows.

The thing that scares me a little is reducing the number of heifer calves I am willing to select replacements from by 35%. The idea of using linebred maternal bulls, or at least maternal bulls with consistent maternal type in their pedigree, helps calm that fear some. The trouble is finding the herd that produces said genetics. I am making progress though. Ironically, had it not been for Genex leasing Cedar Ridge I might not have ended up here...maybe the worst thing they could have done for their business because now I know the world isn't flat, and I'm that much less interested in the rest of the bulls in their barn.

It is really the first time I've had a sense of direction with my breeding program. I didn't feel like the current trend of +50 milk +130 YW -$30 EN type sires was something I wanted to follow but I didn't really know for sure what to do to improve from where we are. You guys will really love this...I was starting to wonder if the way of thinking was the only alternative, but breathed a sigh of relief when I found out it was not...good thing I read more than just the newsletter.

Now I at least have an idea. Not sure how good the idea is...but I feel a lot more confident in it than my previous [lack of] direction.

I'd welcome any and all comments and critiques, witty or otherwise.

LCP, in the vicinity of enjoying the mud on the outside of the pickup rather than the dust on the inside. (did I do that right???)

LCP, you are so much further ahead than you give yourself credit for. To start with you are painfully honest. This was so refreshing to read. I think most of us, at least myself for sure, have been in the same boat as you. A breeding program fixated on the moment. Designed only to address the last article or fad or fix, and at the end of the day feeling more lost and confused and frustrated then the day before. Breeding cattle to do it all and ending up with cattle that can't do anything well. I sure think you are on the right track. To identify the difference between maternal and terminal is a huge step. I wouldn't worry too much about the lost of 35% of your heifers to select from for replacements from if you are using more maternal bulls on your old cows. In time I think you will end up with more quality maternal type heifers to choose from using a specialized breeding scenario than the way you were breeding.

I'm sure you are not done tweeking your program so keep us up to date but for what it's worth I think you're headed in the right direction.

Jack, I told you if you weren't carful we just might learn somthing and I was right.

MK, I think I will have to pass on him. Got to thinking during chores.... Is it easier to make a great purebred cow or a hybrid cow?

Whoops I meant a great purebred cow or a great hybrid cow.

Will wrote:

Whoops I meant a great purebred cow or a great hybrid cow.

Making isn't hard. Replicating is one issue. Efficiency of the system is one issue.

Eddie, not a new guy and sticking my head out of the foxhole to attract fire.