A Grey Area

Subject: Re: A Grey Area Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:19 pm

I dated a girl back in the 70's that had family in Collins and knew the Rogers.
SGF had a couple of articles about their grazing practices.
Never looked into their cattle because I believe cattle in the South need some Brahman influence.
Why do you think Charbray never became popular?

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

I asked a guy this once, and he thought it was because First cross charbray are apparently a beautiful expression of heterosis, exhibited at birth. The calves are way heavy, or at least they used to be. Of course, a brahma cow can apparently have a truck, so it worked out ok lots of times.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Mean Spirit wrote:: Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

MS and Whitecow,
the thing that most concerns me is how big will the calves be at birth?

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

Mike, if your actually asking about this particular bull, I think his birthweight epd was borderline high last year, but I think it's moderated somewhat. Right now it's in the 80th percentile of the breed, so getting toward the broad middle anyway. The birth weights posted in the sale catalog for his calves were plenty acceptable- 70s and 80s mostly as I recall.

MS, thinking about how prescient Tom D is in analyzing dominance.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Mean Spirit wrote:: Mike, if your actually asking about this particular bull, I think his birthweight epd was borderline high last year, but I think it's moderated somewhat. Right now it's in the 80th percentile of the breed, so getting toward the broad middle anyway. The birth weights posted in the sale catalog for his calves were plenty acceptable- 70s and 80s mostly as I recall.

MS, thinking about how prescient Tom D is in analyzing dominance.

epd`s have been very useful if we can consistently get 80 lb calves from that bull...now after three inches rain, off a choppin silage i go...sure wish my cattle were "no input; all profit":... Smile

Posts : 20 Join date : 2010-10-04 Age : 55 Location : TX

We have had about 30 calves here sired by this bull. The birthweights have ranged from 68 to 92. Female have averaged about 77 and males about 83. We have also had two bull calves (55 and 60 lbs) Wagyu F1 sons of this bull. They were ET calves born to 22-24 month old Charolais heifers.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Good results...I bought sight-unseen the scariest looking "type" Simmy I could imagine spring of 2010...no birthweight of significance, and the results of complimentarity and heterosis...just what I expected...awesome....once Smile

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Been reading the advantage discussion AI versus the bull...AI called a tool...isn`t the real question "how broad is the base of your herd"? all the registered Angus cattle? part of the registered Angus cattle? all the Black cattle? all the cattle, called "composite breeds"?
AI makes most anything possible; the broader the base; the less predictability...

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

Clearly, there is an element of the purebred industry-- maybe most folks-- who are more than pleased to think of the "possibilities" due to having the entirety of a breed as the base of their herd. You can do anything in such a situation. I'll admit that not too many years ago the idea that I could select from all the US cattle, plus the older Canadian cattle that have pedigrees that were largely dumped 15 years ago, plus Australian cattle, and kiwi cattle, and French cattle, and you could go back to the old Mexican Fullbloods if you looked hard enough. Not that long before that, I thought about the Charbray breed-- oh my, the base just got huge, because there are a butt load of zebu genetics in the world, waiting to be exploited. Truly, the world is your oyster!!! The problem of course is that the possibilities are, in fact, limitless. And limitless possibilities no longer seems like a good thing.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Mean Spirit wrote:: Clearly, there is an element of the purebred industry-- maybe most folks-- who are more than pleased to think of the "possibilities" due to having the entirety of a breed as the base of their herd. You can do anything in such a situation. I'll admit that not too many years ago the idea that I could select from all the US cattle, plus the older Canadian cattle that have pedigrees that were largely dumped 15 years ago, plus Australian cattle, and kiwi cattle, and French cattle, and you could go back to the old Mexican Fullbloods if you looked hard enough. Not that long before that, I thought about the Charbray breed-- oh my, the base just got huge, because there are a butt load of zebu genetics in the world, waiting to be exploited. Truly, the world is your oyster!!! The problem of course is that the possibilities are, in fact, limitless. And limitless possibilities no longer seems like a good thing.

a lot of "been there, done that"`s in the world...still a lot of "doing that" in the world...but we`re changing the world...why, we had three new converts just last year Smile

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Mean Spirit wrote:: Clearly, there is an element of the purebred industry-- maybe most folks-- who are more than pleased to think of the "possibilities" due to having the entirety of a breed as the base of their herd. You can do anything in such a situation. I'll admit that not too many years ago the idea that I could select from all the US cattle, plus the older Canadian cattle that have pedigrees that were largely dumped 15 years ago, plus Australian cattle, and kiwi cattle, and French cattle, and you could go back to the old Mexican Fullbloods if you looked hard enough. Not that long before that, I thought about the Charbray breed-- oh my, the base just got huge, because there are a butt load of zebu genetics in the world, waiting to be exploited. Truly, the world is your oyster!!! The problem of course is that the possibilities are, in fact, limitless. And limitless possibilities no longer seems like a good thing.

Time is the greatest restraint of the limitless breed possibilities, some would think money, but funny money is limitless... but exploring the limits of a small population is doable in a lifetime...and surely more satisfying than jumping from bull to bull adding this and that; good and bad; and never accomplishing anything of merit because nothing is stabalized to the point of defining what you have for sure...

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

click on the video...surely someone sneaked in and steered this bull

http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php?option=com_php&Itemid=114&id=114&breed=Charolais

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Nice music though, makes me feel rugged and gives me the feeling that if I ordered a few canes, I would be king of the world. Also makes me want to call my select sires man. Whoever that is.

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

MKeeney wrote:: click on the video...surely someone sneaked in and steered this bull

http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php?option=com_php&Itemid=114&id=114&breed=Charolais

Truly horrible. How did they find this mess of a bull and determine that he should be in stud?

Posts : 441 Join date : 2010-09-24 Location : SW Kansas

I guess this isn't the place to market my Good Stuff calves next year.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

or any fat stuffed steers either Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIelDn8OIfI

Posts : 8 Join date : 2010-10-04

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some grey area from the left coast - land of fruits and nuts (actually in the background).....

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the calves this spring gathering off winter pasture

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some of the country they came out of... we had a wet spring

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these were on the neighbors

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this ranch is on the west side of the sacramento valley, so this looking east...

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a view in the same direction

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

thanks so much Norcal; instead of a grey area, crossbreeding looks like a no-brainer Smile

beautiful country there as well, A Gathering kind of spot for sure...too many places, too little time...maybe we should gather twice a year; what`s the temp there in Jan Norcal Smile

?

Posts : 8 Join date : 2010-10-04

high temps in january may be in the mid 40's- low 50's. we may have a freeze or two (25-30 degrees)... two decembers ago we got down to 16 one morning - but that ain't normal (and probably a heat wave for some of you). it is hard to beat this country from feb 15 to apr 15....

Subject: Re: A Grey Area Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:38 pm

Thanks for sharing some pictures, looks like you’re ahead of me on the cattle deal... I hope you find time to contribute more.

Posts : 8 Join date : 2010-10-04

don't know how far ahead of anyone we are... crossbreeding covers the warts pretty effectively. the challenge is being patient enough to fix the black cows issues with black bulls. the use of the white bulls has been a very good learning experiment. not sure that i can articulate what i've learned, but i've learned something.

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

That looks like seedless fruit that will pay the bills. you mention that fixing the Angus female is the challenge could you elaborate.
From the land of fires out and rain has finally begun on Oct 5 2011 Bob H

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Bob H wrote:: That looks like seedless fruit that will pay the bills. you mention that fixing the Angus female is the challenge could you elaborate.
From the land of fires out and rain has finally begun on Oct 5 2011 Bob H

Aren`t those Grey`s nice? Hoodoo sired I believe? good having you back Bob...

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Snowed today at 6000ft looks like it will hit the valley floor tonight calling for 70% chance and 32 deg. Summer is gone and winter is here, and who was complaining about 90 deg on Oct 1st. I think that would be nice right now.

Posts : 8 Join date : 2010-10-04

greys are in fact hoodoo sired. i guess in terms of making my cows better, i compare to pictures of udders and feet that i see others post on here and mine are behind. funny that hilly mentioned i was ahead of him, but none of my young cows look as good as the ones he showed by his 34G bull. the thing that puzzles me is i have 10 year old cows that i have never touched, they have feet that aren't perfect, bags that swing, and a few with nasty dispositions. they calve every year unassisted, wean acceptable calves and breed back on time. most of them are the mothers of those grey calves. everything about them is functional, just not esthetically pleasing. problem is, i have very few daughters out of them. bobh, i guess that boils down to a "me" problem not a "them" problem... those greys are the best male calves they've had. seedless fruit that i wish were black and still had their seeds! again, a me problem, not a them problem.... i don't know if any of that makes sense... it all seems very grey....