Searching for the type

I thought I'd make a photo journey of my search for the "right" type in my linebreeding program. I'm trying to create something to stabilise as a type by breeding differing types together in the hopes of getting an "average type" we can perpetuate. I don't have the luxury of just breeding type to type as we don't have enough starting animals of the same type. A bonus of having such a small nucleus group is that we can keep the bloodlines very tight - essentially it's all built on one cow but we now have around 20 head of this core linebred group on the ground .
No point in having you guys over for a visit - I've got so few cattle in my nucleus group that you probably all recognise them from previous appearances! On the upside because you've all seen them so often I'm hoping you can provide me with plenty opinions on the types you are seeing and the direction I'm going

The objective - to reproduce more regularly cows that are trouble free and profitable over a long lifetime as personified by the matron shown here at age 23 with her last calf.


My initial foray was into thicker, heavier fleshed types like this daughter Exhibit A pictured at 8


and this effective daughter (by a son out of a daughter) Exhibit B pictured at 6


and the bull (a son) with the much debated feet Exhibit C pictured at 4


My initial foray into a linebreeding program was ET breeding the old cow back to a bull closely related to her,
who also happened to be a much older bloodline.
This produced a bigger framed, lighter fleshed, very correct udder and footed daughter Exhibit D pictured at 2


and a couple of sons who have been a slower developing, different type of bull to anything I've had before. Here is the older son Exhibit E pictured as a 3yo. We'll call the unpictured full brother to this Exhibit F.


the second generation are coming into production now - below is a result of mating Exhibit B to exhibit C (thick and fat to thick and fat you could say) A very pleasing first calf heifer who is rearing a heifer calf off Exhibit F.


and my current favorite - a yearling heifer sired by Exhibit E out of Exhibit A (a taller slimmer x thicker fatter type)

This has always been about the smallest of the heifers in the group and a bit of an ugly duckling. Since she hit about a year old I always imagine a similarity in look to the Shoshone cow from a previous post. But maybe I'm just imagining...or dreaming?


I wonder if my heifer is getting closer to the type her grandmother was? The heifers IBC % is 15.6 and by breeding her to exhibit F we will get a 20.3% offspring. The only thing that bugs me a little on a superficial level is the fact I'm getting so many yellows - red Luings are much easier to sell.

Grassfarmer,
the above story is what makes this place so enjoyable...I really like the three year old bull...what experienced reason do I have? none...
but now the first calf heifer just really pleases me; her four udders and her bag are just perfect

Grassy, your bull is most definety a beef machine. I was out looking at a similar cow this morning. Her feet are marvelous. I have my doubts that other parts of her will hold up as well as her feet. I think her type has a use, but something is going to give I presume.

That is all fine for end product production mentality. In the context of maternal selection, the "Shoshone bull that glides through the breeding pen" I presume will usually not exhibit such mass. I still think there is a place for both, as Mike says, "as long as it is in it's proper place".

I think this is where our group here, losses much of the masses. So many still want it all, in one, and I fight tendencies myself. I greatly admire the effort and time you put into your resurection of a nearly lost gene pool, and the desire to make it your own.

Probably should have put this on the other thread, but oh well.


It is odd that we seldom see a sloped off, post legged cow. I have plenty that are a bit sickle hocked, but still have the over level rump. These topics are wonderful fuel, to feed the mind, to improve observation. I now find myself studying rear angles from the ground up, more than I ever did in the past.






Grassfarmer



Posts: 288
Join date: 2010-09-27
Location: Rimbey, Alberta, Canada

Subject: Re: Feet by Dennis Voss Today at 12:38 pm

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Bootheel, I am certainly a bit wary of a bull with this much beef given what I've learned reading here. However thus far I've been pleasantly surprised with his daughters. Calved the first group this year and they are very good uddered, good footed. He doesn't seem to breed as fat as he looks either - my fat x fat matings have produced daughters that are not fatter than either parent and crossed onto females I consider too light fleshed he has improved the offspring somewhat. Maybe it's one generation phenotype we are judging him on? he is afterall out of a cow that was not fat, and his half brothers are about the opposite end of the spectrum on fat. Interestingly we have had absolutely no issues with poor fertility out of the "fat" side of the family.
As I say I'm trying to blend the two types together and get something in the middle.



It looks like it is working for you Grassy. If I was to move to the Yukon, and need some cows, I'd hunt you up. Of course I might not make the cut to be a customer. Nice work anyway. That two year old heifer looks swell to me, as does her momma.

Grassfarmer wrote:

The objective - to reproduce more regularly cows that are trouble free and profitable over a long lifetime as personified by the matron shown here at age 23 with her last calf.

GF, I hope there is no good reason for not showing an updated picture of exhibit F after his first pic I was kind of looking forward to updates...

It may just be the picture but did the old cow walk slightly “uphill” so to speak?

I may have mentioned this before but some of my longest lasting dairy cows walked uphill. I only ever saw it once in my beef herd and she made it to 17, probably nothing to it but interesting to me if she did.

Hilly,
Exhibit F was already out with his breeding group hence I didn't get a photo the other day. He is looking OK but like his older brother will look better at 3 than at 2, they just seem to take longer to mature, like gangly teenagers. I'll try and get a picture.
As for the old cow walking up hill I wouldn't say that was a feature I noticed about her - I think in this shot she must have her feet planted on a little higher ground. I do always try and take pictures with heads up hill as they tend to come out horrible if you don't.

I'm disappointed no-one has commented on my yearling heifer - good or bad let her rip, I'm curious what I've got there.

Hilly wrote:

GF, I hope there is no good reason for not showing an updated picture of exhibit F after his first pic I was kind of looking forward to updates...

Here is the best I could do for you Hilly, he is either breeding cows or eating grass on the move. Never seems to be just standing looking around him. Exhibit F as a two year old...


And the first possible successor to my "dubious footed meat machine" - a yearling son that i'll call my "unwanted". He would certainly be the last pick of 99% of bull buyers but my first choice because he's more tightly bred, from the core of my linebreeding program and probably exhibiting some inbred regression. Always been the smallest of the group but equally the one that does most fence patrolling looking for females.


PS There is something weird going on in this picture - like his back leg, hair and tail are all welded together in a straight line. Doesn't look like that in person.

GF, pretty hard for me to tell much about the yearling heifer at this age from a picture, she looks plenty feminine, I am use to a bit more slope at that age but I don’t know that it amounts to anything.

Thanks for the update on exhibit F, something about that bulls manor that sort stands out in both of his pictures to me, what is his satiability number... in $

Got to love a bull with mud on its head...knows he is a bull!

RobertMac wrote:

Got to love a bull with mud on its head...knows he is a bull!

Quick you'd better patent your "mud count score" before the marketers steal your idea

GF,
I grabbed a pic yesterday of my southern red bull; bred red angus cows to him last fall...I like looking at these reds that show the Bonsma multi-colors...BUT, since I only paid $1350 for him instead of $13,500, he can`t be much good...I should have paid $10,000, and then when he didn`t live up to expectations, I could have called the seller a weirdo...

Mike, How does this bull exemplify "type" you look for and how did you decide this is right "type"? Jim

well, maybe it`s characteristics I saw that caught my eye... he has done so well hanging out since Dec with cows on hay and grass...he`ll be two in Sept...
He was gentle, but could stride smoothly with a presence...scrotum well shaped,swinging and shining, tight sheath, masculine, multi-colored, and slick hair put together in a very average conformation package...not extreme in frame, muscling, depth or anything else with those parts seemingly blending together; ...dam is pretty good "for a Simmy" and he was cheaper because he wasn`t black...and better too...go figure
He`s currently my emergency bull; he never got the 911 call this year as spring breeding season has ended as of today...