Longevity post...rescued from the ruins

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

TitleEstimating variance components and heritabilities in the wild: a case study using the 'animal model' approach.
AuthorsMilner, J. M.; Pemberton, J. M.; Brotherstone, S.; Albon, S. D.
JournalJournal of Evolutionary Biology 2000 Vol. 13 No. 5 pp. 804-813
ISSN1010-061X
DOI10.1046/j.1420-9101.2000.00222.x
Record Number20000110582
Abstract

Using a genealogy containing over 1800 dams and nearly 400 sires (estimated by genetic paternity techniques), combined with maximum likelihood procedures and an 'animal model', we have estimated the heritabilities, genetic correlations and variance components of three morphometric traits in the Soay sheep (Ovis aries) on St Kilda, Scotland. This approach allows heritabilities to be estimated in natural populations that violate the assumptions of offspring-parent regression methods. Maternal (or paternal) effects can also be estimated under natural conditions. [b]We demonstrate that all the traits, body weight, hind leg length and[b] incisor arcade breadth, have low but significant heritabilities[/b][/b]. Body weight, the trait that experiences the strongest selection, had the lowest heritability but the highest additive genetic coefficient of variation. An evolutionary response to selection is predicted. When maternal effects were not taken into consideration heritabilities were over-estimated, although this effect was only significant in female offspring.

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Wed May 18, 2011 12:49 pm

Quote :: Longhorn
Scottish Highland.
Luings.

So, what do they have in common with our old granny cows? Same type? Environmental fit? Lower weaning % of cow weight? Longer pattern of maturity? I've had a LH and seen the Highlanders but an at a loss for the Luings. I think that I'd need air conditioning for them!

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

About the longer maturity pattern.... When i think of longer maturity pattern, I think about brahma cattle and chianina cattle. Brahma cattle certainly can live a long time -- but do chianina? Seems to me the posty legs caused a lot of troubles that led to their demise. Anybody still got an old granny " black angus" daughter of Fairfield Hi Guy out back?

Mean Spirit, vicinity of lunch.

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Wed May 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Quote :: Anybody still got an old granny " black angus" daughter of Fairfield Hi Guy out back?

If I did I wouldn't admit.

EddieM, in the vacinity of not designing tombstones today near the brand spanking new Audubon bridge over the flooding Mississippi.

Posts : 134 Join date : 2010-09-26

The curve bender deal will come back to haunt the Angus breed when it comes to longevity. The cows that last the longest here are out of the heavier boned Angus bulls that are not popular now. They had a slower maturity pattern and kept growing for a number of years. I had a Power Fix daughter that I shipped at 15 and a Hyline Nickel daughter about the same age. I was worried about keeping them too long so cashed them in. I have a Hyline Travel Agent daughter that raised the heaviest fall calf at 13 and she doesn't look her age. These were all larger cows but held together better than some smaller cows. I wouldn't want to feed many their size but for whatever reason they held up well.

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Wed May 18, 2011 11:28 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:

RobertMac wrote:

df wrote:: Does selecting for longevity boil down to selecting structurally sound heifers out of old cows?

Would it be better to select structurally sound bulls out of old cows?

I agree with Mike and GF, but down here, mid to late summer and into fall, the grass gets very 'hard' (lignified) most years...that's when animals with issues loss condition.

I've gotten hung up on something Tom Lasater said...once you decide to keep a heifer, never judge her on her appearance...judge her by what she produces.

Why wouldn't you select structurally sound bulls and heifers out of old proven cows or out of young cows out of old proven cows and old proven bulls? That's my goal.
I think Lasater is wrong and that mentality is what has screwed up alot of cattle over the years. If a cows udder goes or her feet get bad or she developes any number of problems do you over look them if she is producing big calves? From your posts Robert I'm sure you wouldn't but too many breeders do.
The way I took the book about Tom Lasater is that he didn't think in terms of 'seedstock provider'.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

doesn`t almost everyone think in terms of the best production stock becoming the parent stock of the next generation?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

MKeeney wrote:: doesn`t almost everyone think in terms of the best production stock becoming the parent stock of the next generation?

Robert Mac wrote:

.........The way I took the book about Tom Lasater is that he didn't think in terms of 'seedstock provider'.

MikeKwrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

doesn`t almost everyone think in terms of the best production stock becoming the parent stock of the next generation?

From LL
And isn't this what leads to all the endless controversial debates over which type is "BEST" ........ : )

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

MKeeney wrote:: doesn`t almost everyone think in terms of the best production stock becoming the parent stock of the next generation?

Mike an exceptionaly simple concept, yet so foriegn to the predominant breeding paradigm. It has taken me a while to grasp. The hard part is letting go of habitual engrained ideas/paradigms.

Thank you again for The Formative Years. Very interesting.

The quote from LL below seems to be the crux of the matter or as LL called it the "essence of what this is all about".

"A superior hybrid is usually the result of crossing two inbred lines unrelated to each other to produce the heterosis effect"

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Dylan, simple but very difficult for me...we like parents to be big stout ears of corn, not little nubbins...I gotta get some nubbins pictured soon to get folks to the proper prospective by Red Lodge gathering time...

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

Mike, the visual appearance of the nubbins, depending on the degree of nubbinish, could well be a bigger hurdle than the intellectual one. It is left to the hybrid result to redeem the nubbins. Looking at the nubbins serves little purpose, the end result is the indicator of nubbins merit. I can't deny curiosity though.
Smile

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Fri May 20, 2011 5:02 pm

Show me your nubbins!

Guest

[
quote="Tom D"]Show me your nubbins![/quote]
Are you sure really sure you want to see Mikes nubbins?

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Fri May 20, 2011 8:07 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:: Looking at the nubbins serves little purpose..... I can't deny curiosity though.

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

W.T wrote:: [
quote="Tom D"]Show me your nubbins!

Are you sure really sure you want to see Mikes nubbins? [/quote]

Laughing

Welcome aboard W.T!

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Dylan Biggs wrote:

W.T wrote:: [
quote="Tom D"]Show me your nubbins!

Are you sure really sure you want to see Mikes nubbins?

Welcome aboard W.T![/quote]
no one is more unsure than I of showing the nubbins...please notice plurality to get things in proper context Smile

Guest

So mike how long does it take a line bred herd to revert back to Angus? SHOW the nubbins, the world is ready.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

W.T wrote:: So mike how long does it take a line bred herd to revert back to Angus? SHOW the nubbins, the world is ready.

Many are called; few are ready... planting nubbins on KY hillsides today...; will show cow nubbins tonight... Smile

Subject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins Sat May 21, 2011 11:42 am

at 16 years old is 5018 a nubbin or a hybred?
Austin saw her yesterday and said she looked like a 7 or 8 year old cow. said he would take 100 just like her.
he picked up Kimbota to use on Larry's oops I mean Austin's new cows. tried to give him the 5018 son to use with Kimbota. after seeing 5018 I think he wished he would have taken him.

what is the difference between a cull and an a unknown?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

larkota wrote:: at 16 years old is 5018 a nubbin or a hybred?
Austin saw her yesterday and said she looked like a 7 or 8 year old cow. said he would take 100 just like her.
he picked up Kimbota to use on Larry's oops I mean Austin's new cows. tried to give him the 5018 son to use with Kimbota. after seeing 5018 I think he wished he would have taken him.

what is the difference between a cull and an a unknown?

hmmm...5018; a mildly closebred that we will create some nubbins descendents from in due time; good Lord willing...
what is a cull? in production stock, an animal that can`t produce beef profitably?..in a parent stock, an animal that can`t produce progeny that produces beef profitably?

Posts : 321 Join date : 2011-03-07

larkota wrote:: at 16 years old is 5018 a nubbin or a hybred?
Austin saw her yesterday and said she looked like a 7 or 8 year old cow. said he would take 100 just like her.
he picked up Kimbota to use on Larry's oops I mean Austin's new cows. tried to give him the 5018 son to use with Kimbota. after seeing 5018 I think he wished he would have taken him.

what is the difference between a cull and an a unknown?

Can an unknown be a cull before it is known?

Posts : 288 Join date : 2010-09-26

So if an inbred nubbin whose toes are a little long produces an inbred 400 lb calf every 15 months, and those little calves go on to produce wonderful smokey babies, she's a successful parent stock cow nubbin. Even though she is almost certainly not profitable as a beef producer.

I swear, this is a hard story to tell.

Re: cull vs unknown. In an inbred herd, what's the difference between a cull a seedstock?

Guest

I had never been on a boar buying mission until today. My pig farmer buddy understands the nubbin deal pretty well. Of course he said he has accepted the fact that monetary wealth will exceed his grasp, but thinks he has enough. The other pig farmer, John, would be a blessing, to bestow his experience on us, if he could crawl out of the shadows of lurkerdom. I think it is selfish, to glean all this knowledge, wisdom, and serentity, produced here, without passing some on. So come on oh great cultivator of swine genetics, jump in the frying pan of idiocy, with the rest of us crispyfried chickens, being served piping hot, on the Corner Cafe.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Bootheel wrote:: I had never been on a boar buying mission until today. My pig farmer buddy understands the nubbin deal pretty well. Of course he said he has accepted the fact that monetary wealth will exceed his grasp, but thinks he has enough. The other pig farmer, John, would be a blessing, to bestow his experience on us, if he could crawl out of the shadows of lurkerdom. I think it is selfish, to glean all this knowledge, wisdom, and serentity, produced here, without passing some on. So come on oh great cultivator of swine genetics, jump in the frying pan of idiocy, with the rest of us crispyfried chickens, being served piping hot, on the Corner Cafe.

that must be the Jon without the h...surely two as you describe could not exist...maybe Jon is planning on waiting until Red Lodge for his "coming out" of the shadows...I gotta get a tracking device on you Joe; there was a bull at Jon`s that someday must find the road back to his birthing place Smile

Guest

Indeed Mike, could be without the "h", I failed to ask, damn English and the silent letters, three different ways to spell the same word. But, I was just a lowely passenger on the pig express bus, never even looked at a cow. The spotted chickens are at risk, to be traded for a spotted dog.