pinebank newsletter

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

PatB wrote:

eddiem I own no pinebank cattle and have no plans of acquiring any in the near future. The newsletter can generate some interesting post.

Pat, maybe you can post something about pink poodles to generate some interesting posts. Unless you plan to buy a pink poodle in the near future.

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

Time to assume an alias in your own homeland Mike. He is good when enemies abound and if enemies aren't found soon, the army gets fat, lazy, stagnant, complacent, and impotent. Impotence is scary. Act now.


Bootheel, Potent

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

SO WHY HAVE BREEDS

After 58 years on this farm, the last ever tobacco crop is in the barn...war will be spreading

Is there more bragging or bashing or fact in the registered business?
footnote...results will be forwarded to the big jimmer...

mk, fully self-sterilized from any notions of ever being a registered breeder or tobacco grower again...

the big jimmer back-handed bashing...
I think he runs a pretty good breeding program. I especially like the fact that he does not buy into the average cattle are the best, bs. Thanks for posting it here.

To Gavin`s credit, he isn`t afraid to use below average bulls using the criteria the big jimmer cites most often...

That sounds like running down the competition, or is that only institutional and individuals free game?

W.T wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

SO WHY HAVE BREEDS

I bet you see the "Simmental bull" thread lose traction...Dave`s always hip for an easy promotion, bjut pretty slow answering a tougher question...he`d be here instead of Advantage if the reverse were true

EddieM,
I have used PB enough to know they are ok like many Angus, and nothing to get all excited about to rush out and buy semen from the promoters selling it etc...just like the rest of the deal; more bragging, some bashing, fewer facts...
bragging and bashing must be replaced by building on facts...facts say eliminate problems and stabalize complimentary types...bashers call that "average" ; users will call it profitable
everyone keeps their eye on the objective while we amuse ourselves in the sandbox...

EddieM wrote:

PatB wrote:

eddiem I own no pinebank cattle and have no plans of acquiring any in the near future. The newsletter can generate some interesting post.

Pat, maybe you can post something about pink poodles to generate some interesting posts. Unless you plan to buy a pink poodle in the near future.

my 6 year old daughter would love a pink poodle.

The increase in production per cow exposed was based on early work by MARC using Shorthorn, Hereford and Angus in a 3-breed rotation, if I remember correctly. How different were these breeds? Were they of similar type? Do the breeds have to be of significantly different type to justify crossbreeding?

Radakovich told me several years ago that breed complimentarity was more important to him than hybrid vigor. Because I had been taught about the importance of hybrid vigor, I was surprised at the comment. However, Radakovich has composite cattle and thus some hybrid vigor in a fairly maternal cow. He had combined British breeds with heat tolerant breeds to create a female he thought was optimum. What he was looking for was a terminal breed to provide the gain, feed efficiency, carcass weight, marbling, muscle and leanness that complimented the adaptability on fescue and moderate size that he had produced. It wasn't that his composite did not have acceptable gain, wt, etc. but to make them more competitive in the feedlot, a good terminal breed could be of great benefit.

I think his son J.D. made a great comment; "what we need are great managers". I see that in many places where the land base is poorly managed with cows and the result is weedy pastures and thin, open cows. Lots of overgrazing and undergrazing in the same pasture. Bush hogs and sprayers don't make good land managers, IMO.

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

I've been told the benefits of hybrid vigor are not free; however, about 2/3 is free while the other 1/3 is offset by expenses.

The benefits of heterosis are said to be "subtle" increases in a variety of traits which lead to the overall improvement. In a small herd, as most are, the benefit is not easily seen. Is this true?

MKeeney wrote:

the big jimmer back-handed bashing...
I think he runs a pretty good breeding program. I especially like the fact that he does not buy into the average cattle are the best, bs. Thanks for posting it here.

To Gavin`s credit, he isn`t afraid to use below average bulls using the criteria the big jimmer cites most often...

If BJ likes the program then you know that he would have used some PB semen.

MKeeney wrote:

W.T wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

SO WHY HAVE BREEDS

I bet you see the "Simmental bull" thread lose traction...Dave`s always hip for an easy promotion, bjut pretty slow answering a tougher question...he`d be here instead of Advantage if the reverse were true

EddieM,
I have used PB enough to know they are ok like many Angus, and nothing to get all excited about to rush out and buy semen from the promoters selling it etc...just like the rest of the deal; more bragging, some bashing, fewer facts...
bragging and bashing must be replaced by building on facts...facts say eliminate problems and stabalize complimentary types...bashers call that "average" ; users will call it profitable
everyone keeps their eye on the objective while we amuse ourselves in the sandbox...

Mike, no problem on my part with PB cattle. I was just a bit amazed over Pat's continued interest in a line that he has no interest in and that might not even meet his minimum genetic testing criteria.

EddieM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

W.T wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

SO WHY HAVE BREEDS

I bet you see the "Simmental bull" thread lose traction...Dave`s always hip for an easy promotion, bjut pretty slow answering a tougher question...he`d be here instead of Advantage if the reverse were true

EddieM,
I have used PB enough to know they are ok like many Angus, and nothing to get all excited about to rush out and buy semen from the promoters selling it etc...just like the rest of the deal; more bragging, some bashing, fewer facts...
bragging and bashing must be replaced by building on facts...facts say eliminate problems and stabalize complimentary types...bashers call that "average" ; users will call it profitable
everyone keeps their eye on the objective while we amuse ourselves in the sandbox...

Mike, no problem on my part with PB cattle. I was just a bit amazed over Pat's continued interest in a line that he has no interest in and that might not even meet his minimum genetic testing criteria.

EddieM it is not the cattle but the thought process that went/goes into the herd/newsletter that interest me. The same applies to the shoshone/truline thoughts and ideas.

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

I've been told the benefits of hybrid vigor are not free; however, about 2/3 is free while the other 1/3 is offset by expenses.

The benefits of heterosis are said to be "subtle" increases in a variety of traits which lead to the overall improvement. In a small herd, as most are, the benefit is not easily seen. Is this true?

I believe all performance trait expression difference is subtle; eg 50 ww epd versus 20ww epd ..however, phenotypic problem expressions are about as subtle as a 2 by 4 up the side of the head...

PatB wrote:

EddieM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

W.T wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

I notice Larkota has asked a couple of good questions of Dave Nichols

Nichols said...Be forewarned--They're all black, polled, frame six and with nearly identical growth rates and phenotypes that even the judging team coaches can't determine the purebreds from the composite and hybrids. Most won't even try, and those that do fail to get a passing grade

Larkota asked...so one kind is best for everything?? what is gained in heterosis effect is lost in ignoring breed complimentarity? lbs via heterosis must be fed; so it isn`t "free"...but since much of the MARC % increase of crossbred cows is due to fertility, calf crop etc, are your Angus straightbred cows really 23 % poorer than crossbred cows? is this because you and most of the Angus breeders have selected for terminal traits instead of maternal traits?

SO WHY HAVE BREEDS

I bet you see the "Simmental bull" thread lose traction...Dave`s always hip for an easy promotion, bjut pretty slow answering a tougher question...he`d be here instead of Advantage if the reverse were true

EddieM,
I have used PB enough to know they are ok like many Angus, and nothing to get all excited about to rush out and buy semen from the promoters selling it etc...just like the rest of the deal; more bragging, some bashing, fewer facts...
bragging and bashing must be replaced by building on facts...facts say eliminate problems and stabalize complimentary types...bashers call that "average" ; users will call it profitable
everyone keeps their eye on the objective while we amuse ourselves in the sandbox...

Mike, no problem on my part with PB cattle. I was just a bit amazed over Pat's continued interest in a line that he has no interest in and that might not even meet his minimum genetic testing criteria.

EddieM it is not the cattle but the thought process that went/goes into the herd/newsletter that interest me. The same applies to the shoshone/truline thoughts and ideas.

Good deal, Pat. An idle mind is the devil's workshop.

new fodder for the grist mill

pinebank's october newsletter

Spring has arrived, grass is growing and lambs and calves are enjoying the warmer days. Calving is at its peak and William is weighing and tagging some 20 calves per day. Weights are about average, it is a fine line between calving weights being high enough to keep up the vigour and low enough to prevent trouble. Low birth weights appear to be largely a matter of shortening gestation, Gestation being too short can effect vigour.

Cows as they calve are cut out onto fresh pasture that has been shut up for some time. Cows while they are calving are on limited grass but they can see the good grass over the fence. They quickly learn that after calving they graduate onto good grass., as soon as the calf can walk the cow moves to the gate. All you have to do is go and open the gate.

Observing the cattle closely it looked as though the intensity of selection was having some effect of improving their intelligence. They appeared to become quieter and more co-operative.

We have and always have had a high twinning rate so calving is one of the busiest times of the year. Because the cow will often wander off with only one of her twins, we have to spend time identifying which cow is the freshly born calf’s mother. I found out in my years that if a cow reared twins then she was unlikely to conceive the following year, so we take one of the twins away and mother it on to another cow.

The difference between the recovery of inbreeding depression and hybrid vigour.

Breeds of cattle began from a narrow base of very few animals. The necessity to stabilise and fix characteristics required intense inbreeding and with that came depression.

The lift that you get from crossing two unrelated breeds is called ‘hybrid vigour’. All breeds are loaded with recessive genetic material so in the crossing of two different breeds you would be unlikely to transmit two copies of any recessives during the first cross

The effect of crossing two different breeds is best explained by two pieces of paper. On each separate sheet there are holes in the paper, represents that breeds various weaknesses. When you put the sheets one on top of the other, it is unlikely any holes would match. The resulting sheet of paper would have no holes in it thus representing the resulting calf had collected the best features of both breeds.

You must not try breeding the hybrids together as a percentage of the resulting animals will have all the worst of the parent breeds.

Dr Gregory told me that the most important part of breeding his composites were: a) That you must carefully select the breeds you wish to cross. This will depend on your environment, soil type, pasture and management practises. Having selected those breeds which suited your farming setup best, then the next important aspect is b) That every sire be pure and a good representation of that breed. Also preferably come from a programme that has been selecting for those traits that the breed is noted for. You must not try to stabilize the interbreeds.

For one thing you rapidly loose any hybrid vigour that you have gained by the first cross, it takes somewhere between ten and twenty generations to stabilise a crossbred. I would expect that this would increase according to the number of breeds you had in your composite. Twenty generations is at least one hundred years so that could be at least two lifetimes.

In our own herd my father bought 3 cows to begin the stud in 1919. In 1968 there was a history of Angus in New Zealand written by J.P.Tylee. Upon researching our herd I found that the whole herd went back to only one of the cows purchased, in other words the progeny of the other two cows were never kept. This was, in those days ot visual appraisal. What made me become interested in recording was that just before my father died he sold a line of cows. Those cows went on to be the dams of two lines of winning bulls sold at our then stud National sale .

I tried to repurchase the cows back but had no success.

The future holds much interest for our herd, firstly we will be able to discovert how accurate our bull selection has been by using the latest findings from DNA testing . Then we will be able to find out whether the highest DNA tested bulls necessarily produces the best calves. CMC tells me that they have comprehensibly tested them and that they do.

What I know will happen if as I suspect that the present breeders with their single factor selection, will make no progress at all because as they go from character to character each new one will cancel out the old one. The trouble is that any breeding, is a long term job, and you could look back from twenty years ahead to find that nothing has been achieved.

If you are tempted to go from single factor selection of a trait, to the next single factor, you will find that in establishing the new factor you have lost the old one which will return to average. If you stop your selection pressure, then the whole herd will return to average. Natures design is that there is always pressure to return to the average because that is the performance for that animal that has the best chance of survival and of prospering.

once again, excellent evidence to support the concept of dividing selection into maternal and terminal traits...which would, in fact, be more toward the single trait selection that Gavin opposes...

MKeeney wrote:

once again, excellent evidence to support the concept of dividing selection into maternal and terminal traits...which would, in fact, be more toward the single trait selection that Gavin opposes...

I should add to explain for the "performance advocates"reading...divide the traits so we can go twice as fast making more consistent and profitible cows and improving the trats of the paternal lines...those adopting the concept improve, improve, improve...while the jimmers of the world cull, cull, cull...
it seems our critics convienently forget Gavin`s basic and mathematical law....progress is slowed by the square root of the number of traits selected for....

You must not try to stabilize the interbreeds.

and taking that advice a step further, why would you expect to stabalize the outcrosses? because they can`t, they cull, cull, cull....
those who claim to so admire Gavin should follow his first step 40 years ago....close their herd instead of chasing the outlier...

If you stop your selection pressure, then the whole herd will return to average. Natures design is that there is always pressure to return to the average because that is the performance for that animal that has the best chance of survival and of prospering.


selection pressure seems to me to be like a yoyo. wind them up then down then up then down.... at the end of the day lots of work but nothing gained but self amusement.

november issue

Spring is unusually variable this year. We get a couple of clear warm days and then a front comes up from the Antarctic bringing cold and wet weather with snow to low levels. Grass has stopped growing owing to the drop in soil temperature. The weather prediction for this summer is for dry conditions progressing to another drought. Calves and lambs seem to be doing well probably because the feed is still hard. Sloppy feed goes straight through the stock making them scour. The birds seem to have had a good winter because they are as fat as I have seen them and make for a very noisy dawn chorus.

In this newsletter I am going to explain in depth what and why we do various things in our breeding programme written for us by Dr Ch’ang back in the 1960’s. As one of the American scientists said to me on examining it “ That guy has thought of everything !”.

As we were the first herd to instigate the breeding programme we were about two years ahead of the of the three other herds that joined us later. Pinebank was closed, the only time that the herd was ever closed. The other herds as they joined us were closed for ten years and there was a very limited exchange of sires during this period. We did this because:

1) we were looking for genetic recessives and, their frequency so the herds really were never closed.
2) we wished to know the herds growth patterns in the different environments .
3) All bulls grow at different times and at what period the cattle grew, and the environmental effect on the performance of the herd.

So we began with the four herds. I took in the three other herd because we were being treated with distain and Pinebank was receiving a lot of negative publicity. The owners of the herds had to be prepared to adhere completely to the rules ... The reason that we allowed the three other herds to join us were

a) I wanted more cattle in the programme the bigger the herd the more progress you could make because the variation was higher
b)We had 800 cows and became a political force in the National Council.
c)Four herds would spread the costs which I knew was going to be high

Because the four herds came from different environments an analysis was done. , The herds were not closed as there was a limited exchange of sires within the herds.
Within the programme we were always allowed to purchase cows which we were encouraged to do. A cow only has one calf per year so there is little or no effect on the average performance of the herd. Purchased cows tell us many things. Where we were in relation to other herds. Often the cow would be incalf and this fact gave us more information. When there was a dispersal sale one of the Group would attend , go through the records and selecting out the top performing cows. These cows would be purchased and then be spread amongst the Group.

The group was formed before any American bulls came into New Zealand Although of different lines there was no American blood in the Group. We have also always had the ability to test bulls who we think may have something to offer. We use four bulls per 100 cows so all we do is bring the strange bull into one of the groups. He then goes into the standard progeny test and at a glance we can see how good he is compared to our own bulls. We still insist that the bull be pure Scottish bred.
I never used this when I was running the herd but son William has been doing so whenever he discovers a New Zealand bred bull whose national progeny test looks interesting. We found all bulls grew at different times but since then the programme has made them more consistent to growing earlier to get them ready for working as yearlings.

Looking back I may have given the impression that our herds were closed, but of course having the four herds they never were, as there has always an interchange of bulls within the group

The fact that there were four different environments made progeny tests of this interchange more accurate.

At the beginning, realising that we were infore the long haul in the breeding programme, we recognised the necessity that the base cattle had to be temperamentally and structurally sound, Every sire was cut out on its own , stood in a corner of our yards, the group of four members approached the bull crowding him into the corner. If he showed any stress he was discarded. Every bull was carefully examined for structural soundness..

This careful examination of sires has continued up until the present. Waigroup has now dropped to two herds, Pinebank and Glanworth the other two herds left for various reasons but the number of cows has remained at approximately 600.

The cows are run under commercial conditions. Cows must be able to compete with sheep, cope with the vagaries of the weather and remain fertile. We regulary have 98% survival of calves per year. Bulls must grow early enough to begin work as yearlings and do it on grass and hay only

Now after 47 years that the programme has been operating we are seeing the results of achieving characteristics that have very high commercial value which is available to all cattle farmers who wish to use our bulls or semen.

A bit disappointed to read they are open to outside bulls...but, if increased performance of the individual is the primary goal, why limit yourself to your own herd? or just New Zealand bulls? or just Angus Bulls? today New Zealand; tomorrow, the world...