Maternal Manifesto

I had a very enjoyable visits with several hog breeders in the last month. One Mike Lorig traveled along for a Kansas visit and the other called to visit about cattle. The second breeders call caused me to sit down and do a little typing. Keeney's Corner seems a little slow with Spring getting going so I though I would share. Look forward to your feedback.
Maternal Manifesto
I received a call from an Illinois cattleman interested in a bull I am using from Canada. I learned this gentleman had considerable experience breeding hogs, experience breeding cattle and a lot of experience on how not to breed cattle. He told me of a swine registry field man who used to call the breeders who did not fall in line with the majority COMMUNISTS. Labels are a great tool to neutralize those whose ideas or doctrines are contrary or a threat to the status quo.
Whether Communists, Blue Sky Breeders or just plain radicals our truths are upsetting to opportunistic market oriented seed stock producers bent on selling change, progress and rarity. Change is nothing new, progress is rarely real progress and rarity has little impact in the larger scheme of things. The disconnect between leaders and qualities of leadership is evident in many aspects of our lives but to no greater degree than in the production of livestock genetics.
The inability to recognize the importance of MATERNAL disadvantages beef production to other meat production industries. Swine breeders recognize the importance of maternal utilizing specialized maternal strains. Why is a maternal strain, where sows nurture their offspring for less than a month, important to pork production? The obvious answer is that the maternal strain sow produces pigs that are healthier, heavier and more valuable to the production system. The maternal strains female and male offspring are candidates for genetic resupply of production systems.
No matter the species the greatest animal breeding minds have always recognized that maternal as both a concept and a quality sustains our herds as well as protects our herds from our mistakes. Where do we turn when extreme selection goals have negatively impacted our herd? We rebuild around our sound, reliable maternal families to restore qualities of production and reproduction.
Livestock visionaries like Larry Leonhardt, Shoshone Angus, James Lingle, Wye Plantation and Roy Beeby, Prairie City Farms have diligently tried to educate seed stock and commercial production segments on the importance of maternal contribution. Concepts like Leonhardts Trueline allow advantages of a stabilized type creating opportunities to benefit from line crosses and cross breeding. Outstanding herds and flocks have been built by those breeders who embrace the importance of their females. Great herds have been diminished by breeders who lost focus on the role of females in their successes.
Improvement of maternal qualities requires stubborn resolve and long term commitment. One not need to look far to see the aftermath from misguided selection goals than our commercial cow herds. We must define what constitutes a maternal cow, a maternal cow herd and what are important maternal traits. Be confident that while you work on cows others will put more emphasis on unsustainable performance goals, terminal trait selection and perceived EPD superiority. Those who choose extreme individuals for parent stock will be forced to deal with the unintended consequences. Good herds will not be built and maintained without respecting the contributions of good cows. WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A QUIET REVOLUTION TO REBUILD COMMERCIAL COW HERDS WITH SUSTAINABLE PREDICTABLE COWS.

Quote :

Livestock visionaries like Larry Leonhardt, Shoshone Angus, James Lingle, Wye Plantation and Roy Beeby, Prairie City Farms have diligently tried to educate seed stock and commercial production segments on the importance of maternal contribution.

hhhhummm... I`m not so sure that isn`t a mis-statement; almost certainly, an overstatement...

Quote :

A QUIET REVOLUTION TO REBUILD COMMERCIAL COW HERDS WITH SUSTAINABLE PREDICTABLE COWS.

how are revolutionary breeders making them sustainable and predictable?

Scott- I agree with much of what you say...Where I disagree with Larry, Mike, Dennis, and some of their followers is when they give up the fight- and instead of trying to get the registered angus breed back as the tops of the maternal breeds- throw in the towel to the AAA- and stop registering 20-30-40-50+ years of maternal breeding...

I know some are upset with the Angus Association (and I sure don't agree with a lot of their horsesh*t games) - but to me the way to really stick it up their butts is to beat them at their game-- not take your ball and go home half way in the middle of the game....

I'm just trying to get back to the cattle we had 30-40 years ago-- that I first screwed up with the "continental kick" and then later when I went back to straight angus- the chasing of numbers and the fact that the only AI rep we had in our area was an ABS rep-- a bull pimp outfit that does nothing but chase numbers mostly...

My goal is for myself- and my son to eventually pass on those maternal qualities to other folks with registered angus (mainly because of the "registered" rules of so much of the public land/community pastures up here) --and maybe I'm selfish-- but I like the ability of using others years of work to cut corners in making those top maternal cattle....

Oldtimer wrote:

-- but I like the ability of using others years of work to cut corners in making those top maternal cattle....

You don't need papers for that though - the heritage, the legacy - is the cattle, not the papers.

Grassfarmer wrote:

Oldtimer wrote:

-- but I like the ability of using others years of work to cut corners in making those top maternal cattle....

You don't need papers for that though - the heritage, the legacy - is the cattle, not the papers.

But if the community thru years of heritage and by the pasture rules is sold on having to use "registered" bulls-- then you can do nothing as a seedstock provider- and/or to improve the maternal qualities of the cattle of the community....

Over the years I've watched "breed" after "breed" come to be-- from Santa Gertrudis to Balancers to Hybrid Masters to Hays Converters to Beefmasters to Maximizers (secret formula) to Droughtmasters to Black Herefords-- and a few dozen more "perfect" breeds... All claiming to be the best...Then we have some PCC's, Basic Blacks, and now "Tru-lines" with no papers all claiming to improve the cattle world-- while not wanting to maintain a pedigree or bloodline record....

Probably the best maternal cow out there is the old F1 Hereford/Angus cross-- but unless you have the ability to run 3 seperate herds they are difficult to maintain- and most folks don't want to go thru the efforts- or have the management ability of keeping their F1 line up- or their crossbreds at exactly 1/4 blood or 3/8ths blood or 1/2 blood or whatever it takes....
They just want cattle they can throw out there and will do a job for them...

I hate to see the chickenization/porkifying of the cattle industry-- where there is no breeds anymore-- only a hybrid owned/accepted by the industry...
As I've said before- if we keep letting Brazilian JBS buy up the countries feeding and slaughter industry- and gaining more control of the worlds beef supply (25+% now?) we will all no longer have to make any breeding decisions- and they will be requiring us to all breed everything to sons of El Toro Grande......

Oldtimer wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

Oldtimer wrote:

-- but I like the ability of using others years of work to cut corners in making those top maternal cattle....

You don't need papers for that though - the heritage, the legacy - is the cattle, not the papers.

But if the community thru years of heritage and by the pasture rules is sold on having to use "registered" bulls-- then you can do nothing as a seedstock provider- and/or to improve the maternal qualities of the cattle of the community....

Over the years I've watched "breed" after "breed" come to be-- from Santa Gertrudis to Balancers to Hybrid Masters to Hays Converters to Beefmasters to Maximizers (secret formula) to Droughtmasters to Black Herefords-- and a few dozen more "perfect" breeds... All claiming to be the best...Then we have some PCC's, Basic Blacks, and now "Tru-lines" with no papers all claiming to improve the cattle world-- while not wanting to maintain a pedigree or bloodline record....

Probably the best maternal cow out there is the old F1 Hereford/Angus cross-- but unless you have the ability to run 3 seperate herds they are difficult to maintain- and most folks don't want to go thru the efforts- or have the management ability of keeping their F1 line up- or their crossbreds at exactly 1/4 blood or 3/8ths blood or 1/2 blood or whatever it takes....
They just want cattle they can throw out there and will do a job for them...

I hate to see the chickenization/porkifying of the cattle industry-- where there is no breeds anymore-- only a hybrid owned/accepted by the industry...
As I've said before- if we keep letting Brazilian JBS buy up the countries feeding and slaughter industry- and gaining more control of the worlds beef supply (25+% now?) we will all no longer have to make any breeding decisions- and they will be requiring us to all breed everything to sons of El Toro Grande......

the same old tiresome chirp; just as absolutely clueless as always; thinking a public registration paper makes a "breed"...because you can`t stretch your mind past a registration paper that tells you little about what has been done to make a better cow, except that tradition has been upheld, fees paid, papers printed...
Probably the best maternal cow out there is the old F1 Hereford/Angus cross
good lord!!!! Hereford? what hereford? Angus? what angus? cross? cross of what kinds? if that`s the mired in the past thinking that prevails in the industry,and I suspect it is, then the door is wide open for JBS to take over breeding...and they should....

Quote :

But if the community thru years of heritage and by the pasture rules is sold on having to use "registered" bulls-- then you can do nothing as a seedstock provider- and/or to improve the maternal qualities of the cattle of the community....

you ever thought about working to change stupid ass rules OT that were made to fatten the pocket of those making the rules? well no, probably not...since you are a paid rule enforcer....

MKeeney wrote:

Quote :

A QUIET REVOLUTION TO REBUILD COMMERCIAL COW HERDS WITH SUSTAINABLE PREDICTABLE COWS.

how are revolutionary breeders making them sustainable and predictable?

The breeders whose cattle I would trust manage, sort and think of their cattle as commercial cattle first. When basic commercial qualities are met then they are worthy as seedstock. Most customers do not end up in our camp for any of the following reasons: our programs are sexy, expensive advertising campaigns, the popularity of our breeding with the masses, we have followed an AI companies program, we are such great feeders we make ordinary cattle look great, outstanding EPDs or the host of other reasons people get interested in mainstream programs. Most of my customers can not provide enough feed , management and environment to make the other cattle they have tried work. I don't have enough feed or management to make other cattle I have tried work.

Registration papers are a matter of preference. As stated before I enjoy owning registered angus and will continue to keep the registration papers current.

OAK LANE FARM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

Quote :

A QUIET REVOLUTION TO REBUILD COMMERCIAL COW HERDS WITH SUSTAINABLE PREDICTABLE COWS.

how are revolutionary breeders making them sustainable and predictable?

The breeders whose cattle I would trust manage, sort and think of their cattle as commercial cattle first. When basic commercial qualities are met then they are worthy as seedstock. Most customers do not end up in our camp for any of the following reasons: our programs are sexy, expensive advertising campaigns, the popularity of our breeding with the masses, we have followed an AI companies program, we are such great feeders we make ordinary cattle look great, outstanding EPDs or the host of other reasons people get interested in mainstream programs. Most of my customers can not provide enough feed , management and environment to make the other cattle they have tried work. I don't have enough feed or management to make other cattle I have tried work.

yeah, all that is contrarian, and perhaps a start...but does it make a cow herd more predictable? you mentioned the Canadian cattle...you`ve never experienced them; yet you use them, can you call that predictability or experimentation?

MKeeney wrote:

OAK LANE FARM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

Quote :

A QUIET REVOLUTION TO REBUILD COMMERCIAL COW HERDS WITH SUSTAINABLE PREDICTABLE COWS.

how are revolutionary breeders making them sustainable and predictable?

The breeders whose cattle I would trust manage, sort and think of their cattle as commercial cattle first. When basic commercial qualities are met then they are worthy as seedstock. Most customers do not end up in our camp for any of the following reasons: our programs are sexy, expensive advertising campaigns, the popularity of our breeding with the masses, we have followed an AI companies program, we are such great feeders we make ordinary cattle look great, outstanding EPDs or the host of other reasons people get interested in mainstream programs. Most of my customers can not provide enough feed , management and environment to make the other cattle they have tried work. I don't have enough feed or management to make other cattle I have tried work.

yeah, all that is contrarian, and perhaps a start...but does it make a cow herd more predictable? you mentioned the Canadian cattle...you`ve never experienced them; yet you use them, can you call that predictability or experimentation?

You have that all wrong Mike. I started out with Canadian cattle and most of my cow families have a Canadian cow as it's foundation. My interest and work with several Canadian bulls is a small research and development project. Your critisism when I posted about it on 5barx did cause me to rethink and re examine my goals. My focus is on to maintain the qualities that Shoshone and Shoshone influenced genetics has brought to my herd. Predictable is those two bulls you showed in the picture and those cows at Red Lodge. That picture captures what most of us need - cattle without extra fat that don't look skinny. Cattle bred for production not promotion.

I`ve been wrong plenty...but I`m not so sure any of us have it so right just yet that we can declare manifestos...was Lingle`s Wye a maternal herd? I don`t think so...do you have an ideal type in mind maternally? Franchester?
and once you figure what "your" type is, what are you doing to make it...1. sustainable genetically and phenotypically ?
2. more predictable ?
when we really scrutinize what any of us are doing, is it really that much different than the rest that are moderating production equivilant to the feed resources? I think breeding requirs more than that...

It was a play on the Communist thing Mike and I was thinking with the keyboard. The only place that is almost as cold and miserable as N Central ND are parts of Canada. I believe that while the US was focused on the Eileenmere/ Bardolier and small Scotch cattle there were some Canadian cattle expecially in Alberta that were of Earl Marshall breeding that may have been and still would be valuable genetics. Why did they disappear. They didn't all disappear but instead of being about well bred herds and well bred lines it became a race for the freakiest ,tallest individuals we could find. I am glad you are tracking the bulls I have used I should not have. I have got the hindsight thing down fairly well Mike. Could you be a little more forthcoming with the forsight stuff? OT may not have recieved any points for his commentary this morning but he brought up a point that I hear a lot. There are a lot of good cattlemen who wish they could get their hands on some of the cattle from 35 years ago.

35 years ago I came home to the daughters and progeny of three Wye bulls who cost $1000, $2250, $2500...the $2500 equalled 1/3 of my yearly salary at the University of Ky to put how damn high priced those bulls were...bought a set of scales, dad asked why, I said to weight calves...there was one calf in that calf crop that weighed over 400 lb...go back 35 years? what the hell for ?

OT can`t, or more likely won`t, get it through his skull that I`ve moved past AAA and registration;... tossed in the towell my ass
I`m going to be a cattle breeder the rest of my days, not a delegate to BS Associations to support the common good of the multitudes; moving at the pace of the slowest group of dues paying dimwits and con men promoters in the group...I`ve things to do, places to go, and who wants to drag along a majority when you know where you are going? Find those that have some want to and some get up, and get on with things...
foresight? I highly suspect that our selection/breeding methodology for "maternal" has been screwed up for the last 35 years, and most are getting ready to "go back" and repeat the SOS...and pre those 35 years, "maternal" was never given a slightest thought
Are you changing how you breed cattle, or just what cattle you are going to breed?

Were Angus cows ever "purely maternal" or was that just the buzz phrase of another era to make them something other than "everything to everybody"? Were any beef breeds ever "purely maternal"? How about any historic herds or lines?

Eddie, Others may disagree but I believe Roy Beeby was a breeder of maternal cattle. I am sure there are others and am anxious to see what others think particularly MK and DV who have so many years dedicated to raising cattle. Good question. Jim

Breeders need to strike a balance in traits for their cow herd with strong emphasis on maternal and fertility. Use terminal genetic cattle for exceptional carcass and growth for the finished market. I believe there is a place for EPD's and genomic predictions in selecting both types of cattle just different selection criteria needs to be applied.

patb wrote:

Breeders need to strike a balance in traits for their cow herd with strong emphasis on maternal and fertility. Use terminal genetic cattle for exceptional carcass and growth for the finished market. I believe there is a place for EPD's and genomic predictions in selecting both types of cattle just different selection criteria needs to be applied.

there`s a place for anything that benefits you in your breeding direction Pat...

jhudson wrote:

Eddie, Others may disagree but I believe Roy Beeby was a breeder of maternal cattle. I am sure there are others and am anxious to see what others think particularly MK and DV who have so many years dedicated to raising cattle. Good question. Jim

Divergent total performance breeding programs have been the initial sincere courtship between the seedstock supplier and the commercial producer. LL

Jim, I`d put Roy Beeby in the "initial courtship" phase...no disrespect intended, but can`t we take the successes and mistakes of prior breeders, learn from them, and progress beyond...rather than repeat...their efforts?
I`m rather anxious to get the picture of a maternal inbred cow up here, and let everyone shriek in horror and disbelief that such a critter could be the dam of a bull to be used here....for discussion on this thread, as well as disappointment prevention preparation for the August Gathering

MKeeney wrote:

jhudson wrote:

Eddie, Others may disagree but I believe Roy Beeby was a breeder of maternal cattle. I am sure there are others and am anxious to see what others think particularly MK and DV who have so many years dedicated to raising cattle. Good question. Jim

Divergent total performance breeding programs have been the initial sincere courtship between the seedstock supplier and the commercial producer. LL

Jim, I`d put Roy Beeby in the "initial courtship" phase...no disrespect intended, but can`t we take the successes and mistakes of prior breeders, learn from them, and progress beyond...rather than repeat...their efforts?
I`m rather anxious to get the picture of a maternal inbred cow up here, and let everyone shriek in horror and disbelief that such a critter could be the dam of a bull to be used here....for discussion on this thread, as well as disappointment prevention preparation for the August Gathering

Mike, I am waiting with baited breath, I think I can bear to look.... try me.

We will see how naive I am.

EddieM wrote:

Were Angus cows ever "purely maternal" or was that just the buzz phrase of another era to make them something other than "everything to everybody"? Were any beef breeds ever "purely maternal"? How about any historic herds or lines?

From my Scottish perspective I don't think Angus were ever claimed to be purely maternal - it was the quality of their beef they were noted for. McCombie was famous for breaking the English breeds (presumably hereford and shorthorn) monopoly of Smithfield championships with his Aberdeen Angus cattle. Smithfield is the premier English fatstock show.

There is a breed that was intended to be purely maternal - and it's the one I have
A mission statement if you like from the foundation era of the Luing breed immediately post WW2.

Luing - the cow breed.
"The Luing is a breed of beef cattle which was evolved to help fill a gap in beef production - that of a need for a suitable cow which could be bred pure or crossed, and which would rear a well grown calf under adverse conditions. It is a breed which was bred to the modern requirements of the beef industry; to suit the environments enountered in many parts of the world; to be a self propogating breed; to be a good roughage convertor and therefor require less costly feeding, making it a commercially viable breed; to produce a female which is efficient as a mother."

Toot, Toot

Mike, Great observations. Let me show my ignorance. So, we have three catagories: Performance(terminal),total performance where emphasize maternal but push performance to limit of reproduction and then maternal? Please help me sort out where you are coming from. Also, how are we defining maternal herd? This may have been discussed and I missed. Thanks and forgive me for my lack of understanding. Mr. Coffelt has already explained to me that I am indeed limited. Jim

Quote :

Breeders need to strike a balance in traits for their cow herd with strong emphasis on maternal and fertility. Use terminal genetic cattle for exceptional carcass and growth for the finished market. I believe there is a place for EPD's and genomic predictions in selecting both types of cattle just different selection criteria needs to be applied.

If you were attempting to answer my question, then you get an A on composition and a D- on content!

Some of the breeds, from historical reading I have done (books prior to 1999 and some with words!!!! ) said that breeds like the Devon were primarily for milk and draft and they would eat the ones and tan the hides of any that broke a leg, etc. This was more of the American pioneer writing but I assume they were eating the ancestors of our beefs in Europe with or wthout a leg problem! But I do wonder, were all of the beef breeds in their original countries used for draft, too? Any historians here?

So, I wonder how we know what the ultimate maternal cow and herd looks like if there has never been a purely maternal breed? I guess the picture of Mike's, Bill's, Susan's or whoever he is today will give us a PhD in maternal cattle breeding.

I have no answers; just more questions...maybe the only thing wrong here is lack of humun understanding of nature`s genetic variation...causing us to over-value the few who seem so "perfect"; who then can only disappoint us...
Can a cow be worth $26,000 for her genetic contribution to a commercial herd?