Bovine Nirvana - Bourdon

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/66/8/1892?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=66&firstpage=1892&resourcetype=HWCIT

Don't know if you can access this paper.

Read Rick Bourdon years ago and always enjoyed his viewpoints...but if I must spend all day collecting data, and all night recording it, what kind of nirvana is that?

Although we have gone over this, we both know the ONLY data that is actually difficult to collect is the actual birthweights. It is certainly not hard for most to record the ID, sire, dam, birthdate, sex, weaning wt, weaning date, yearling wt, yearling date, contemporary groups, mature wts, mature wt date, BCS and disposal codes. That is not a long list and except for birthweights and birthdates, all data is collected on one day.

I thought you would be able to pick a hole in the thoughts of Bourdon, even if his overall philosophy was pretty spot on with yours!

It is amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't do! -author unknown

df wrote:

Although we have gone over this, we both know the ONLY data that is actually difficult to collect is the actual birthweights. It is certainly not hard for most to record the ID, sire, dam, birthdate, sex, weaning wt, weaning date, yearling wt, yearling date, contemporary groups, mature wts, mature wt date, BCS and disposal codes. That is not a long list and except for birthweights and birthdates, all data is collected on one day.

I thought you would be able to pick a hole in the thoughts of Bourdon, even if his overall philosophy was pretty spot on with yours!

It is amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't do! -author unknown

weaning and yearling are the same day? I don`t think so; I soppose it isn`t extra work if it is your job at a university...I didn`t read it all, but I have in the past...good stuff to read ...when it agrees with my thinking

I thought this post was about whisky...guess I have early on-set dyslexia.

Pretty amazing stuff from an epd guru. Published in 88? If he threw in a little bit about inbreeding strains, you could include this paper as part of the Tru-line manifesto.

I don't think anybody was paying much attention to him, based on the last twenty years of progress.

RobertMac wrote:

I thought this post was about whisky...guess I have early on-set dyslexia.

I actually thought it might be about whisky, weed, and early 90s grunge rock. And I figured I was definitely in for that party.

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

Although we have gone over this, we both know the ONLY data that is actually difficult to collect is the actual birthweights. It is certainly not hard for most to record the ID, sire, dam, birthdate, sex, weaning wt, weaning date, yearling wt, yearling date, contemporary groups, mature wts, mature wt date, BCS and disposal codes. That is not a long list and except for birthweights and birthdates, all data is collected on one day.

I thought you would be able to pick a hole in the thoughts of Bourdon, even if his overall philosophy was pretty spot on with yours!

It is amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't do! -author unknown

weaning and yearling are the same day? I don`t think so; I soppose it isn`t extra work if it is your job at a university...I didn`t read it all, but I have in the past...good stuff to read ...when it agrees with my thinking

You might as well; you are already guessing birth weights.

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

df wrote:

Although we have gone over this, we both know the ONLY data that is actually difficult to collect is the actual birthweights. It is certainly not hard for most to record the ID, sire, dam, birthdate, sex, weaning wt, weaning date, yearling wt, yearling date, contemporary groups, mature wts, mature wt date, BCS and disposal codes. That is not a long list and except for birthweights and birthdates, all data is collected on one day.

I thought you would be able to pick a hole in the thoughts of Bourdon, even if his overall philosophy was pretty spot on with yours!

It is amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't do! -author unknown

weaning and yearling are the same day? I don`t think so; I soppose it isn`t extra work if it is your job at a university...I didn`t read it all, but I have in the past...good stuff to read ...when it agrees with my thinking

You might as well; you are already guessing birth weights.

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

df,
here`s what I`m not guessing...If a heifers calf is born dead, I know it...and it never goes into the bull sale...We will assist in the daylight hours if need be, that fact is not guessed, and that calf does not go in the bull sale...birthweight has eliminated two calves from the bull sale this year; one born dead, one assisted...from 40 first calf heifers; yes, our heifer bulls need to be better than that...it will be with Unwanted sons we will use this year...

Quote :

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

I think that such is a general opinion of mankind. "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen", etc.

Quote :

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

I always thought it interesting the opinion researchers had of producers.

RobertMac wrote:

Quote :

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

I always thought it interesting the opinion researchers had of producers.

I have been on both sides. This isn't my first rodeo!!

df wrote:

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

Give me a break df. I've worked with some of these researchers. 40 hr weeks with a peon to do every menial task. Yea, it's a rough ole life. When I see researchers giving up thier jobs to go into the private sector I'll believe you. I've only ever seen one and he failed big time. He knew every answer and he would tell you that as he looked down his nose at you. When he had to put it into practice and pay the bills with all his ideas as a ranch manager he just about broke that ranch before they ran him off. He was the head of a very large, well know research center and he didn't last 10 years in the private sector. Yea researchers have it rough.

RobertMac wrote:

I thought this post was about whisky...guess I have early on-set dyslexia.

Jack McNamee wrote:

df wrote:

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

Give me a break df. I've worked with some of these researchers. 40 hr weeks with a peon to do every menial task. Yea, it's a rough ole life. When I see researchers giving up thier jobs to go into the private sector I'll believe you. I've only ever seen one and he failed big time. He knew every answer and he would tell you that as he looked down his nose at you. When he had to put it into practice and pay the bills with all his ideas as a ranch manager he just about broke that ranch before they ran him off. He was the head of a very large, well know research center and he didn't last 10 years in the private sector. Yea researchers have it rough.

It cuts both ways.

Really?

I'm just saying I would not generalize what I thought of a group based on one individual of that group. Some researchers are very proficient whiles others are not. Pretty much the same in other occupations, I suspect. I have heard of ranchers who basically lost the ranch after it was given to them. Hopefully they will find a way to make it work but not all do.

Jack McNamee wrote:

df wrote:

If you had any clue what researchers go through, your attitude would be different. Everybody thinks researchers have it easy, but few want to do their job.

Give me a break df. I've worked with some of these researchers. 40 hr weeks with a peon to do every menial task. Yea, it's a rough ole life. When I see researchers giving up thier jobs to go into the private sector I'll believe you. I've only ever seen one and he failed big time. He knew every answer and he would tell you that as he looked down his nose at you. When he had to put it into practice and pay the bills with all his ideas as a ranch manager he just about broke that ranch before they ran him off. He was the head of a very large, well know research center and he didn't last 10 years in the private sector. Yea researchers have it rough.

Why don't ranchers give up their jobs to be researchers if it is so easy? Every occupations has its pros and cons and some are better suited to certain careers than others.

I kinda figured universities could have their pick of an oversupply of Animal Science PhD and MS grads. The guys I used to know at college in the early 90s would've killed for a university job to keep from working for a breed journal, a feed mill, or a pig farm. Hell, thats why I went to vet school.

So, just to be clear, Animal Science PhD and MS grads are now getting sufficient compelling opportunities that they don't want university jobs? If thats the case, I'm just about tired of this career.. I can sell the cows, take the GED and go back to school-- school is, in fact, consistently more enjoyable and easier than real life-- and get me one of those grad degrees and get me one of those university jobs. Is this a good career option?

df wrote:

Why don't ranchers give up their jobs to be researchers if it is so easy? Every occupations has its pros and cons and some are better suited to certain careers than others.

Ranching is research. We just don't get published. I do research every day and the day I stop will be the day I die or I'm put in the home or the bank takes my place. Do you think there is any PHD that has done more research than a Larry Leonhardt? I don't have anything against research people. They have done and continue to do some very helpful work, but I get really tired of academia looking at me like I'm some hillbilly because I won't buy into everyone of their theories or models. Especially when it seems more time than not, time will prove them wrong. When it comes right down to the nut cuttin the person I'm going to listen to the most is going to be the person who makes a living off cattle, pays their taxes, that pay the wages of the researchers. They have proven their theories in my world.

Jack McNamee wrote:

df wrote:

Why don't ranchers give up their jobs to be researchers if it is so easy? Every occupations has its pros and cons and some are better suited to certain careers than others.

Ranching is research. We just don't get published. I do research every day and the day I stop will be the day I die or I'm put in the home or the bank takes my place. Do you think there is any PHD that has done more research than a Larry Leonhardt? I don't have anything against research people. They have done and continue to do some very helpful work, but I get really tired of academia looking at me like I'm some hillbilly because I won't buy into everyone of their theories or models. Especially when it seems more time than not, time will prove them wrong. When it comes right down to the nut cuttin the person I'm going to listen to the most is going to be the person who makes a living off cattle, pays their taxes, that pay the wages of the researchers. They have proven their theories in my world.

I don't know you personally but my experience is that researchers do not consider producers "hillbillies" just because they don't buy into their theories or models.

Dylan Biggs wrote:

RobertMac wrote:

I thought this post was about whisky...guess I have early on-set dyslexia.

Glad someone got my Bourbon-Bourdon joke...thanks, Dylan.

df, I've been on both sides...in a way. My father was a USDA research engineer(just a BS, but many patents)...grew up knowing many research PhDs and worked for many through high school and college. Very intelligent people, but few, if any, could function in the 'real world' application of their field of study. As I'm sure you know, the cutting edge of ag production is done by progressive producers...maybe one day, you will provide the research proof of the correctness of Tru-Line!

I visited with a cattleman from very near Clay Center and he talked about the across breed work and comparisons that had been done there. When he unraveled the research the groups as few as 20 cows per breed per year to come up with that stuff. Who says they represent the average of the breeds- they represent the average of the very small population that exists at Clay Center. Instead of pride in the nearby institution he has contempt and embarassment. Rick Bourdon was a Red Angus rancher before he became an acedemic. He or his family owned Rapid Canyon Ranch which was in Wyoming. Herds like Buffalo Creek and Leachman would of had a significant amount of RCN breeding 20 years ago.

We in the west have been brutilized by the "academics" DF. Fish and Game Academics, BLM Academics.EPA Academics, Beef Today Academics, Forest Service Academics, and on and on. We are fired up and we won't take it anymore, we are roping rabbits and spurring ribs, we are serious contenders for presenting valid information and concerns. Dennis Voss, Riding For My Own Brand, But Ready To Help Jack On A Moments Notice

OAK LANE FARM wrote:

I visited with a cattleman from very near Clay Center and he talked about the across breed work and comparisons that had been done there. When he unraveled the research the groups as few as 20 cows per breed per year to come up with that stuff. Who says they represent the average of the breeds- they represent the average of the very small population that exists at Clay Center. Instead of pride in the nearby institution he has contempt and embarassment. Rick Bourdon was a Red Angus rancher before he became an acedemic. He or his family owned Rapid Canyon Ranch which was in Wyoming. Herds like Buffalo Creek and Leachman would of had a significant amount of RCN breeding 20 years ago.

I am sure that could be true. The publication I often quote has the following;
Red Poll 974 births
Hereford 1060
Angus 1566
Limousin 1081
Braunvieh 1001
Pinzgauer 641
Gelbvieh 998
simmental 983
Charolais 1045
MARC I 761
MARC II 1055
MARC III 571

All of these breeds had over 350 2-yr-old females evaluated and over 1,000 (normally more than 1500) females of all ages evaluated.