The Near Perfect Cow

Grassfarmer wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

my cousins factory genes derived pigs are not only out of their environment; they are out of their pen and have their noses buried in cow piles...I don`t know if they are profitable; but they sure are pigs  

We see that too - raising a mixture of Hutterite hog barn raised modern hybrid weaners along side our "heritage breed" crosses and fattened outdoors in grass pens with ad-lib grain based diet. Once those barn pigs get over a little sunburn they grow faster, are more efficient convertors, better yielding and most times a customer expresses a preference for the finished product it's usually off the modern hybrids. Certainly this is not like an animal that is living off grass alone and having to range in high hills. I wonder though how much of a parallel there is with the   "philosophy" that little, old fashioned types are the most efficient on grass and in the feedlot?
These barn raised hybrid weaners are definitely our most profitable hogs.

Have you tried crossing heritage breed with the truline hutterite hog barn pig? When we had pigs back years ago dad used a landrace boar on common sows and we had excellent pigs.

RobertMac wrote:

Nothing makes me crave bacon more than a pig eating dung!

Mike, you can't believe everything you read on the internet.   

True Robert,
that KA cow in Vero Beach works far better when crossed with Brahman...   

Hilly is the learned behavior specialist...the just right type cows often can`t function on his swathed hay because they haven`t learned to dig through snow banks...

These barn raised hybrid weaners are definitely our most profitable hogs. [/quote]


Iain,Do you experience profit from your hybrids year round or only in your limited window of NON-winter ?    Jon

pukerimu wrote:

Are the "heritage" breed crosses stabilised or do they have an element of hybrid vigour too?

No clue really I just bought hogs from small farmer breeders so who knows what is in them.

PatB wrote:

Have you tried crossing heritage breed with the truline hutterite hog barn pig?  When we had pigs back years ago dad used a landrace  boar on common sows and we had excellent pigs.  

That's what we have done this time - the hybrid x "heritage" sow and the results so far look better than the straight heritage hogs.

jonken wrote:

These barn raised hybrid weaners are definitely our most profitable hogs.

Iain,Do you experience profit from your hybrids year round or only in your limited window of NON-winter ?    Jon[/quote]

We are only raising any of the fatteners through our short summer season. We keep the sows outside over winter so that is perhaps where we can save a little on the heritage versus the hybrid. I suspect the hybrids maintenance requirements would be higher outdoors in winter due to their less hair, less skin, less fat but I may be wrong in that assumption.

Grassfarmer wrote:

pukerimu wrote:

Can you please explain what a Luing cattle beast is - I am not familiar with them - although I have seen them being discussed here - are they from Scotland originally or Europe with a name like that?

They are a breed developed from a 5/8 beef shorthorn and 3/8 highland base, by the Cadzow family who own the island of Luing off the west coast of Scotland. Started in the 1940s and have been recognized as a breed in their own right since 1965. The Cadzow vision was to create a breed like no other - one that's focus was to be purely commercial as they were frustrated as commercial cattlemen that the pure bred cattle of the day had lost their way by following the "fads and fashions" of the show ring. Some of us try to keep the original vision alive while others want to put them on the show circuit and are breeding them for that purpose  
I likely have the biggest herd of them outside Scotland (www.luingcattle.com) although there are herds in several other European countries as well as Australia (Tasmania) and a few in NZ. Roger James from Benmore Station (now a leading Limo breeder I see) was the first herd and biggest in NZ in the early 70s.  Breeders that I know of in NZ now are Dwight Gray, Te Anau, Southland, Dan Love, Omakau, Central Otago, Mr & Mrs J. Thom, Waikouaiti and Daniel Wheeler Kaiapoi who was an occasional poster on here a while back.

I'm still lurking..........

nzdan wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

pukerimu wrote:

Can you please explain what a Luing cattle beast is - I am not familiar with them - although I have seen them being discussed here - are they from Scotland originally or Europe with a name like that?

They are a breed developed from a 5/8 beef shorthorn and 3/8 highland base, by the Cadzow family who own the island of Luing off the west coast of Scotland. Started in the 1940s and have been recognized as a breed in their own right since 1965. The Cadzow vision was to create a breed like no other - one that's focus was to be purely commercial as they were frustrated as commercial cattlemen that the pure bred cattle of the day had lost their way by following the "fads and fashions" of the show ring. Some of us try to keep the original vision alive while others want to put them on the show circuit and are breeding them for that purpose  
I likely have the biggest herd of them outside Scotland (www.luingcattle.com) although there are herds in several other European countries as well as Australia (Tasmania) and a few in NZ. Roger James from Benmore Station (now a leading Limo breeder I see) was the first herd and biggest in NZ in the early 70s.  Breeders that I know of in NZ now are Dwight Gray, Te Anau, Southland, Dan Love, Omakau, Central Otago, Mr & Mrs J. Thom, Waikouaiti and Daniel Wheeler Kaiapoi who was an occasional poster on here a while back.

I'm still lurking..........

And?? got an update for us on the Luing situation in New Zealand?

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

pukerimu wrote:

Can you please explain what a Luing cattle beast is - I am not familiar with them - although I have seen them being discussed here - are they from Scotland originally or Europe with a name like that?

They are a breed developed from a 5/8 beef shorthorn and 3/8 highland base, by the Cadzow family who own the island of Luing off the west coast of Scotland. Started in the 1940s and have been recognized as a breed in their own right since 1965. The Cadzow vision was to create a breed like no other - one that's focus was to be purely commercial as they were frustrated as commercial cattlemen that the pure bred cattle of the day had lost their way by following the "fads and fashions" of the show ring. Some of us try to keep the original vision alive while others want to put them on the show circuit and are breeding them for that purpose  
I likely have the biggest herd of them outside Scotland (www.luingcattle.com) although there are herds in several other European countries as well as Australia (Tasmania) and a few in NZ. Roger James from Benmore Station (now a leading Limo breeder I see) was the first herd and biggest in NZ in the early 70s.  Breeders that I know of in NZ now are Dwight Gray, Te Anau, Southland, Dan Love, Omakau, Central Otago, Mr & Mrs J. Thom, Waikouaiti and Daniel Wheeler Kaiapoi who was an occasional poster on here a while back.

I'm still lurking..........

And?? got an update for us on the Luing situation in New Zealand?

I'm running just 6 cows, AId each year to my stocks of late '60s/early '70s born bulls. With nearly 150 straws it should last me a good while.
There are other breeders but I've had no contact with them.

nzdan wrote:

I'm running just 6 cows, AId each year to my stocks of late '60s/early '70s born bulls. With nearly 150 straws it should last me a good while.
There are other breeders but I've had no contact with them.

It must be a tight gene pool in New Zealand after being essentially closed for 40 years? What bulls did you get semen off - Luing Polestar and ???
Do you have any pictures to demonstrate the type?

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

I'm running just 6 cows, AId each year to my stocks of late '60s/early '70s born bulls. With nearly 150 straws it should last me a good while.
There are other breeders but I've had no contact with them.

It must be a tight gene pool in New Zealand after being essentially closed for 40 years? What bulls did you get semen off - Luing Polestar and ???
Do you have any pictures to demonstrate the type?

Yes the gene pool is fairly tight, we were down to 1 pure cow and 1 pure bull at one point There were some 3/4 Luing cows which were bred up to pure while the society allowed it. so we've got a pure population now. My intention is to use the older Luing and red top semen for now. Any horned cows retained will be mated to Crusader as he is Homozygous polled.

I have the following semen on hand

Lochend RedTop 58P (10 straws 1Daughter)
578 Bracken brn 1972 (29 Straws 3 daughters)
L/01120 Polestar brn 1977 (10 Straws)
239 Higwayman brn 1969 (7 straws)
352 Manager brn 1970 (0 straws 5 cows AId 2016)
353 Mariner brn1970 (8 straws)
375 Zodiac brn 1970 (20 starws)
Upotia Crusader (homozygous polled)(49 Straws)

I do have some photos but don't seem to be able to paste them here.

You have to use a photobucket process to upload pics...instructions under first topic...would enjoy seeing them...

nzdan wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

I'm running just 6 cows, AId each year to my stocks of late '60s/early '70s born bulls. With nearly 150 straws it should last me a good while.
There are other breeders but I've had no contact with them.

It must be a tight gene pool in New Zealand after being essentially closed for 40 years? What bulls did you get semen off - Luing Polestar and ???
Do you have any pictures to demonstrate the type?

Yes the gene pool is fairly tight, we were down to 1 pure cow and 1 pure bull at one point There were some 3/4 Luing cows which were bred up to pure while the society allowed it. so we've got a pure population now. My intention is to use the older Luing and red top semen for now. Any horned cows retained will be mated to Crusader as he is Homozygous polled.

I have the following semen on hand

Lochend RedTop 58P (10 straws 1Daughter)
578 Bracken brn 1972 (29 Straws 3 daughters)
L/01120 Polestar brn 1977 (10 Straws)
239 Higwayman brn 1969 (7 straws)
352 Manager brn 1970 (0 straws 5 cows AId 2016)
353 Mariner brn1970 (8 straws)
375 Zodiac brn 1970 (20 starws)
Upotia Crusader  (homozygous polled)(49 Straws)

I do have some photos but don't seem to be able to paste them here.

Hey, I see you have pictures on Facebook you could post a link to it. Very impressive - as in Canada they remain very close to the original Scottish type. They remain a very distinguishable type on a breed basis. RedTop was of course bred by Bob Church in Alberta. I have 2 or 3 cows off him, decent bull. They also used Highwayman, Mariner and Manager in Canada but not Bracken or Zodiac. The Crusader bull I've never heard of - assuming he was a NZ or OZ creation? Not quite sure how they got a homozygous polled bull out of those solidly horned starting genetics?

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

I'm running just 6 cows, AId each year to my stocks of late '60s/early '70s born bulls. With nearly 150 straws it should last me a good while.
There are other breeders but I've had no contact with them.

It must be a tight gene pool in New Zealand after being essentially closed for 40 years? What bulls did you get semen off - Luing Polestar and ???
Do you have any pictures to demonstrate the type?

Yes the gene pool is fairly tight, we were down to 1 pure cow and 1 pure bull at one point There were some 3/4 Luing cows which were bred up to pure while the society allowed it. so we've got a pure population now. My intention is to use the older Luing and red top semen for now. Any horned cows retained will be mated to Crusader as he is Homozygous polled.

I have the following semen on hand

Lochend RedTop 58P (10 straws 1Daughter)
578 Bracken brn 1972 (29 Straws 3 daughters)
L/01120 Polestar brn 1977 (10 Straws)
239 Higwayman brn 1969 (7 straws)
352 Manager brn 1970 (0 straws 5 cows AId 2016)
353 Mariner brn1970 (8 straws)
375 Zodiac brn 1970 (20 starws)
Upotia Crusader  (homozygous polled)(49 Straws)

I do have some photos but don't seem to be able to paste them here.

Hey, I see you have pictures on Facebook you could post a link to it. Very impressive - as in Canada they remain very close to the original Scottish type. They remain a very distinguishable type on a breed basis. RedTop was of course bred by Bob Church in Alberta. I have 2 or 3 cows off him, decent bull. They also used Highwayman, Mariner and Manager in Canada but not Bracken or Zodiac. The Crusader bull I've never heard of - assuming he was a NZ or OZ creation? Not quite sure how they got a homozygous polled bull out of those solidly horned starting genetics?

https://www.facebook.com/Daniel-Wheeler-Livestock-1582551338634362/

Crusader is a NZ bred bull. the last pure cow and the last pure bull (his parents) were both polled. I beleive that the original imported cows were polled, Bracken was imported to NZ from Scotland.
How has Redtop bred for you? I have one cow by him with her 2nd calf at foot, she is my best cow to look at, moderate frame, great shape, easy fleshing....but she has now raised two miserable calves so her days are numbered.

beautiful...

nzdan wrote:

Crusader is a NZ bred bull. the last pure cow and the last pure bull (his parents) were both polled. I beleive that the original imported cows were polled, Bracken was imported to NZ from Scotland.
How has Redtop bred for you? I have one cow by him with her 2nd calf at foot, she is my best cow to look at, moderate frame, great shape, easy fleshing....but she has now raised two miserable calves so her days are numbered.

RedTop did OK based on the limited numbers I had off him. I have one 10 year old daughter left - the biggest cow in the herd (due to her dams ancestry rather than the sire)
Looking at the picture of your RedTop cow as a 3 year old she exhibits the classic problem I have on occasion - being too good to herself! I see a definite pattern in my cases of a heifer calf that was too well reared resulting in her laying down fat in her udder. When the daughter calves she is in great shape but is always a poor milker leading to the miserable calves. Chances are that heifer calf that's been raised tough will revert to the grandmothers performance level, or at least an acceptable level of production. Don't know what the solution to that is but we have a few from each years calf crop like this - maybe 3-5% and they are rarely out of the same cow.

I'm not an expert on Luing horns but I've probably studied more than most. All the Cadzow bred bulls you listed were horned except I don't know the status of Polestar. RedTop is heterozygous polled. If the original import cows were Cadzow bred (as I suspect they were) they were horned. There were no polled cattle in the herd on Luing until at least 1975 (I have herd books from breed foundation until 1975). They likely didn't get a polled calf until they bought their first "outside" bull and i'm not sure when that was but certainly post 1975. Polled cattle came into the breed through the grade registers with the most notable group being cattle belonging to Sir Lithgow of Ormsary in the 2nd herdbook - his entries were all polled. I note that by 1975 nearly all of his calves by a horned bull out of the polled females came out horned. Interesting given that polled is normally considered dominant! The Ormsary herd was discontinued at some point before my involvement and the next notable herd with polled Luings was Monzie. I see one of their earliest polled bulls was out of a horned cow and bull both Cadzow bred. The Monzie influence likely led to the more modern spate of polled Luings, notably Dirnanean and Benhar breeding. Seems more and more of the sale bulls are polled but when I left in 2000 polled animals in the breed were few and far between. I see some bulls are now claimed to be homozygous polled also.

Now the Canadian story ... The imports here were all horned and there is more of a preference for polled here than in the UK. This was one of the motivations for the Luing breed to incorporate the Snowlander strain of cattle into the Luing breed. The Snowlander cattle originated from a Shorthorn bull bought in Wyoming in the 1920s who might have been homozygous polled bred onto Highland cattle. By the late 1970s the Snowlander population was 75% polled so the Luing Association inspected and selected a good proportion of the females (all polled I believe) to be grandfathered into the Luing breed as grade 75% animals. Breeders have continued to select against horns and today we are around 95% polled.

Bob Church spent quite a bit of time pursuing homozygous polled genetics. A son of my old 223U foundation cow - Red 134D had several calf crops on the ground before a horned calf appeared. In the interim thinking that the bull might be Homo Bob had bred him back to some daughters trying to "fix" this homo trait if it in fact existed in 134D. The RedTop bull you used as well as Achayella his 3/4 brother were the results of that project. Both have bred more horns than their sire did. Bob with his understanding of genetics gave up on the project at this point - 134D was very, very close to being homo but it only takes one horned calf to disprove that! As Bob explained to me polling in Luings is complicated - first there are 2 sets of horned genes - Highland and Shorthorn and the complication is that the Highland horn gene does not fit the pattern of other European horn genes. He said they have something he calls a "double recessive" whereby the horn gene can skip a generation so something that is apparently polled turns out calves that aren't. He also told me the Highland shares these anomalies with one of the big horned African breeds and possibly the Texas Longhorn if I'm remembering correctly.
I just googled this piece tonight - something I wasn't aware of - European horn genetics and the African horn gene.

https://projects.ncsu.edu/cals/an_sci/extension/animal/news/aug96/aug96-3.html

An extract says "Cattle producers should also keep in mind that a proven homozygous bull will produce some horned calves if he is bred to horned or polled cows that carry the African horn gene."

I'm not saying the Highland carries the African gene and Bob has never mentioned this to me but there certainly is something odd about the horn genes originating from the Highland cattle. Knowing Bob's experience with his Luings and his knowledge of genetics I'm quite skeptical when people turn up with what they claim to be homozygous polled Luings.

In all of the worthwhile discussions and learning parts of KC there has been the situation of question and answer, lack of understanding that was cleared, a lack of full grasp to need background but most of all it seems there was opposing thoughts that generated the most vitality to spur on to new levels.  We see this again in a breed where somethings were said and some were not and there are unknowns.  So, if anything I typed is true:


What were points in animal breeding that you disagreed on with Larry and did those issues get resolved? How?

What obstacles did you over come in animal breeding to understand the fullness of Larry's thoughts?

What else would you have liked to have asked Larry now?

Is Beckton a closed herd?

EddieM wrote:

In all of the worthwhile discussions and learning parts of KC there has been the situation of question and answer, lack of understanding that was cleared, a lack of full grasp to need background but most of all it seems there was opposing thoughts that generated the most vitality to spur on to new levels.  We see this again in a breed where somethings were said and some were not and there are unknowns.  So, if anything I typed is true:


What were points in animal breeding that you disagreed on with Larry and did those issues get resolved?  How?

What obstacles did you over come in animal breeding to understand the fullness of Larry's thoughts?

What else would you have liked to have asked Larry now?

I think the most useful thing I learned from Larry was to avoid the round robin use of the few bulls that I had proved to function well here and merely change to use them as line or family breeding efforts without the mixing of the original animals as base carriers of the line. I had always hoped that the dream of type to type would work but feel more comfortable now with breeding within a line or outcrossing and letting the genetics settle down in future generations.

What I never realized until reading and re-reading: Larry sorted through many, many cattle to get to where he ended. I had the idea that he did it quickly but he earned his knowledge with sweat, scars and money just like we have if we have put much "knowing" in the piggie bank.

Grassfarmer wrote:

nzdan wrote:

Crusader is a NZ bred bull. the last pure cow and the last pure bull (his parents) were both polled. I beleive that the original imported cows were polled, Bracken was imported to NZ from Scotland.
How has Redtop bred for you? I have one cow by him with her 2nd calf at foot, she is my best cow to look at, moderate frame, great shape, easy fleshing....but she has now raised two miserable calves so her days are numbered.

RedTop did OK based on the limited numbers I had off him. I have one 10 year old daughter left - the biggest cow in the herd (due to her dams ancestry rather than the sire)
Looking at the picture of your RedTop cow as a 3 year old she exhibits the classic problem I have on occasion - being too good to herself! I see a definite pattern in my cases of a heifer calf that was too well reared resulting in her laying down fat in her udder. When the daughter calves she is in great shape but is always a poor milker leading to the miserable calves. Chances are that heifer calf that's been raised tough will revert to the grandmothers performance level, or at least an acceptable level of production. Don't know what the solution to that is but we have a few from each years calf crop like this - maybe 3-5% and they are rarely out of the same cow.

I'm not an expert on Luing horns but I've probably studied more than most. All the Cadzow bred bulls you listed were horned except I don't know the status of Polestar. RedTop is heterozygous polled. If the original import cows were Cadzow bred (as I suspect they were) they were horned. There were no polled cattle in the herd on Luing until at least 1975 (I have herd books from breed foundation until 1975). They likely didn't get a polled calf until they bought their first "outside" bull and i'm not sure when that was but certainly post 1975. Polled cattle came into the breed through the grade registers with the most notable group being cattle belonging to Sir Lithgow of Ormsary in the 2nd herdbook - his entries were all polled. I note that by 1975 nearly all of his calves by a horned bull out of the polled females came out horned. Interesting given that polled is normally considered dominant! The Ormsary herd was discontinued at some point before my involvement and the next notable herd with polled Luings was Monzie. I see one of their earliest polled bulls was out of a horned cow and bull both Cadzow bred. The Monzie influence likely led to the more modern spate of polled Luings, notably Dirnanean and Benhar breeding. Seems more and more of the sale bulls are polled but when I left in 2000 polled animals in the breed were few and far between. I see some bulls are now claimed to be homozygous polled also.

Now the Canadian story ... The imports here were all horned and there is more of a preference for polled here than in the UK. This was one of the motivations for the Luing breed to incorporate the Snowlander strain of cattle into the Luing breed. The Snowlander cattle originated from a Shorthorn bull bought in Wyoming in the 1920s who might have been homozygous polled bred onto Highland cattle. By the late 1970s the Snowlander population was 75% polled so the Luing Association inspected and selected a good proportion of the females (all polled I believe) to be grandfathered into the Luing breed as grade 75% animals. Breeders have continued to select against horns and today we are around 95% polled.

Bob Church spent quite a bit of time pursuing homozygous polled genetics. A son of my old 223U foundation cow - Red 134D had several calf crops on the ground before a horned calf appeared. In the interim thinking that the bull might be Homo Bob had bred him back to some daughters trying to "fix" this homo trait if it in fact existed in 134D. The RedTop bull you used as well as Achayella his 3/4 brother were the results of that project. Both have bred more horns than their sire did. Bob with his understanding of genetics gave up on the project at this point - 134D was very, very close to being homo but it only takes one horned calf to disprove that! As Bob explained to me polling in Luings is complicated - first there are 2 sets of horned genes - Highland and Shorthorn and the complication is that the Highland horn gene does not fit the pattern of other European horn genes. He said they have something he calls a "double recessive" whereby the horn gene can skip a generation so something that is apparently polled turns out calves that aren't. He also told me the Highland shares these anomalies with one of the big horned African breeds and possibly the Texas Longhorn if I'm remembering correctly.
I just googled this piece tonight - something I wasn't aware of - European horn genetics and the African horn gene.

https://projects.ncsu.edu/cals/an_sci/extension/animal/news/aug96/aug96-3.html

An extract says "Cattle producers should also keep in mind that a proven homozygous bull will produce some horned calves if he is bred to horned or polled cows that carry the African horn gene."

I'm not saying the Highland carries the African gene and Bob has never mentioned this to me but there certainly is something odd about the horn genes originating from the Highland cattle. Knowing Bob's experience with his Luings and his knowledge of genetics I'm quite skeptical when people turn up with what they claim to be homozygous polled Luings.

I have wondered about that heifer have a fat udder issue, she was a very good calf and has always remanded in good condition. I've only got polled cows now and last year was the first horned calf I've ever had, out of the Redtop daughter by Bracken, most all of my early calves were by Crusader out of Polestar daughters, some of these Polestar daughters were horned but I've never had a horned calf until this year.
Yes all of those cadzow Bulls are horned, My understanding of the Foundation Luings were that there was a polled bull in one of the first sales? Bought by Camerons at Monzie?? Rumor has it that the original Badrisaig hill was stocked with Angus cows when Cadzows bought it and some of these cows remanded. Certainly the Badrisaig hill had I high % of polled cows when I was last there.
My understanding of the "african" horn gene is that it is a sex linked gene so Hetro bulls are horned and hetro cows are polled but homo cows are horned. Possible the Highland carriers a similar or the same gene. It would certainly explain the odd occurrence of horns.
Wooplaw and Monzie have been using only polled bulls for many years now and often advertise Homo polled bulls, I guess as time goes on and more and more polled bulls are used on Polled cows that there will be more and more homo polled cattle about.

nzdan wrote:

.... My understanding of the Foundation Luings were that there was a polled bull in one of the first sales? Bought by Camerons at Monzie?? Rumor has it that the original Badrisaig hill was stocked with Angus cows when Cadzows bought it and some of these cows remanded. Certainly the Badrisaig hill had I high % of polled cows when I was last there.........Wooplaw and Monzie have been using only polled bulls for many years now and often advertise Homo polled bulls, I guess as time goes on and more and more polled bulls are used on Polled cows that there will be more and more homo polled cattle about.

Not sure when the first polled bull would be sold but looking through the Herdbooks I have show everything born on Luing from the early 1950s to 1975 being horned - that is a lot of cattle as they were registering 200 heifers a year for most of those years. Monzie bought Luing Ferryman at the first sale in 1966 but he was a horned bull. However when crossed to a horned Luing bred cow off Skipper a polled bull calf was born - Monzie Donald Maol in 1968. This would be the origin of the polling in the Monzie herd as all his first calf crop were polled. In 1972 Monzie bred another polled bull out of a horned x horned mating. Wooplaw got into polled cattle through Monzie bulls.

Cadzows took over some crossbred cows when they bought the island in 1947 but I see nothing to indicate any foundation stock were bred from them - the foundation females were SH X Highland heifers bought from Cameron of Balbuthie and Douglas and Angus Estates. In any case it's clear polling in the Luing breed did not originate from cattle bred by Cadzows on the island.

The Bardrishaig heft are slightly different to the rest - it was formed much later, in 1963 from A grade females sired by Duncrahill Shorthorn bulls so they had a different Shorthorn origin to the rest that were founded off Cruggleton Alister sons. Something that is little mentioned in the histories - the Cadzows had a long standing Shorthorn herd at Duncrahill, before and during founding the Luing breed yet they went to Bertie Marshall at Cruggleton to get the foundation sire for the new breed. If there were more polled cattle on Bardrishaig when you saw them that would be a more recent development.

More polled bulls being bred onto polled cows should result in more homozygous polled cattle - if they follow the usual poll/horn genetic patterns of European cattle - the experience in Canada has been that they don't.

You have to laugh at the Disadvantaged arguing the values of cattle by locations such as cattle of the SW are junk, cattle of one state are superior, chickens with woody breasts prop up low end cattle prices, it's all about exports, what bull is great (this year) .... Yet as we ride from environment to environment we see no cows or bulls alike in the wide variety of locations. If breeding does not change them, the climate changes them. If climate does not change them, the forages change them. As hard as people might want to change cattle and make all cattle alike, the elements are greater changers and controllers. Yet the arguments go on about superiority of the cattle as if the quality of the cattle reflect the quality of the owner. Is it about cattle or ego? We can all fall into that trap. But what is most satisfying about livestock: to see breeds, lines, flocks and families function adequately in the given environment. It generally requires adapted animals, preferably raised in place and allowed to succeed or fail under a watching and thinking individual(s). Comparatives more than 100 miles away are people issues.

"I see a man who has serious intentions, that's Levin; and I see a peacock, like this featherhead, who's only amusing himself."
Tolstoy, Anna Karenina

Quote :

...in addition to the age of the bull it would be insightful to know your mgt protocols regarding bulls, your assessment of his docility and for fun, the location of his head whorls.

Would be interesting to know where head whorls are on some of the posters, too.

Illusions commend themselves to us because they save us pain and allow us to enjoy pleasure instead.
We must therefore accept it without complaint when they sometimes collide with a bit of reality against which they are dashed to pieces. Sigmund Freud