Retained Ownership

Besides Bob H, does anyone else retain ownership on their calves? Or have you ever received carcass data on calves you sold? What did you learn?

I understand many here are focused on maternal qualities, but since the cow contributes 50% of the genetic material, it seems prudent to find out what that half contains. Not necessarily to change the selection of maternal genetics, but to better choose paternal/terminal genetics.

The past couple years we fed out our steers. We didn't get data back on everything, but what we did was consistently choice or better (90%+), and too many YG 4's & 5's (20%). I learned that marbling isn't a problem for our cattle, fat is. Improving YG is one of the reasons I want to implement crossbreeding. Improving feedlot performance is the other. The guy who fed them said his favorite steer to feed is 3/4 Angus 1/4 continental. He also said uniformity is something we could improve in these calves. I heard the same thing from Briann last week, except it pertained to our cows. So I have learned from both ends of the business that uniformity is something I should work on.

WT here's your chance to pick on Luke...

We fed out our own, here on the farm, and sorted and sold them as they were ready. Loads were pooled with other small producers and harvested at USPB. Usually YG 3's straight across and Premium choice or higher. YG to me is a time on feed issue, and quality grade was usually lower on my early loads as well. The premiums for quality usually overcame any YG discounts. It also verified for me that terminal traits and maternal traits were antagonistic.

The only thing fed out here now is freezer beef trade, and I set my price at Prime. Most are now sold as grass yearlings but methods may change upon circumstances.

Whenever I hear someone talking about retained ownership- I always have one warning to folks thinking about it-- if you are going to put them in someone elses feedlot check out and double check out the feedlot you will be putting them in- and then personally check on the cattle as often as you can...

I say this because of a situation I got caught up in the middle of a few years back where I had inspected several loads of a local fellows calves that he shipped in the fall to a Nebraska feedlot (recommended by his banker- and known to be an upstanding long running CAB operation)... Mid winter the owner gets a call that this Feedlot has dead cattle all thru it- froze up waterers- and starving cattle running the countryside and roads...
Turns out the Feedlot had gone broke- the owner took to partying and had ran off with his girlfriend- and at last count I think there was 400-500 calves out of the about 1000 shipped that couldn't be accounted for..

And he learned that the owner gets the back teat behind all the Banks and Credit companies when trying to get money back for his losses out of a bankruptcy court...

Oldtimer wrote:

Whenever I hear someone talking about retained ownership- I always have one warning to folks thinking about it-- if you are going to put them in someone elses feedlot check out and double check out the feedlot you will be putting them in- and then personally check on the cattle as often as you can...

I say this because of a situation I got caught up in the middle of a few years back where I had inspected several loads of a local fellows calves that he shipped in the fall to a Nebraska feedlot (recommended by his banker- and known to be an upstanding long running CAB operation)... Mid winter the owner gets a call that this Feedlot has dead cattle all thru it- froze up waterers- and starving cattle running the countryside and roads...
Turns out the Feedlot had gone broke- the owner took to partying and had ran off with his girlfriend- and at last count I think there was 400-500 calves out of the about 1000 shipped that couldn't be accounted for..

And he learned that the owner gets the back teat behind all the Banks and Credit companies when trying to get money back for his losses out of a bankruptcy court...

Seems like everyone has a horror story like that. A family friend of ours lost a whole pen of cattle when the feedlot filed for bankruptcy, right after they delivered his cattle to the packer, and cashed the check that was made out to the feedlot. He didn't get a dime. We are pretty particular that the check needs to be made out to us, not the feedlot.

What we found is that our staight angus cattle have to be harvested in a timely fashion or they will become 4's and loose conversion which is were some of the profit comes from. When we feed our char x calves we have a lot longer window without losing much quality or conversion. About the check not getting to the right owner you need to file a ucc with the state in which they are fed and killled in. If you do this the people that kill the catttle have to pay for the cattle twice if you do not get your money. The more consistant the cow herd the more predictable the end product will be. If your cow herd isn't meeting the kill need but is the ranch need study which breed will be most profatable to cross with and make seedless fruit. Be sure that it is about profit before any changes are implemented. ie conversion, gird that you want to hit etc. Bob H

Bob H wrote:

What we found is that our staight angus cattle have to be harvested in a timely fashion or they will become 4's and loose conversion which is were some of the profit comes from. When we feed our char x calves we have a lot longer window without losing much quality or conversion. About the check not getting to the right owner you need to file a ucc with the state in which they are fed and killled in. If you do this the people that kill the catttle have to pay for the cattle twice if you do not get your money. The more consistant the cow herd the more predictable the end product will be. If your cow herd isn't meeting the kill need but is the ranch need study which breed will be most profatable to cross with and make seedless fruit. Be sure that it is about profit before any changes are implemented. ie conversion, gird that you want to hit etc. Bob H

Well put bob and excellent in sight in to the needs of the ranch, and the feedlot rarely do you read where someone even mentions the producers needs to be profitable. And the feed yard in the same context. Now luke no picking on you but how on earth did you get 90% choice or better. i hear that 70% is not even possible and you have excedded that. be quite and don't let that info get to far luke as you may have to run the gauntlet for remarks like that.

W.T wrote:

Bob H wrote:

What we found is that our staight angus cattle have to be harvested in a timely fashion or they will become 4's and loose conversion which is were some of the profit comes from. When we feed our char x calves we have a lot longer window without losing much quality or conversion. About the check not getting to the right owner you need to file a ucc with the state in which they are fed and killled in. If you do this the people that kill the catttle have to pay for the cattle twice if you do not get your money. The more consistant the cow herd the more predictable the end product will be. If your cow herd isn't meeting the kill need but is the ranch need study which breed will be most profatable to cross with and make seedless fruit. Be sure that it is about profit before any changes are implemented. ie conversion, gird that you want to hit etc. Bob H

Well put bob and excellent in sight in to the needs of the ranch, and the feedlot rarely do you read where someone even mentions the producers needs to be profitable. And the feed yard in the same context. Now luke no picking on you but how on earth did you get 90% choice or better. i hear that 70% is not even possible and you have excedded that. be quite and don't let that info get to far luke as you may have to run the gauntlet for remarks like that.

Dad started selecting for carcass when the tools (EPDs and ultrasound) started becoming available probably 15-20 years ago. So genetics have a little to do with it, but the 20-25% YG 4-5 made a difference too. Funny thing, last year we barely had any prime (less than industry average 3%) despite so many choice carcasses. So I'm not sure what to make of that. Makes me think management maybe still carried more weight than genetics.

Remember WT, these calves have more than cactus and sagebrush to chew on, and they don't have any rough country to travel. Its a pretty easy life when they're on the cow. They don't have much of an excuse for hanging a select carcass. Now, just to bring the maternal back into the females...there are remnants, as Mike & co. showed me last week, but much work is yet to be done.

Our expoerince has been that having cattle grade choice is genetic the key is what did it cost in fat to get there. The other thing that I wonder about is what does it cost your customer in lbs of trim and the end user in throw away product. Today it may be acceptable but as we move on and high priced gains what will be the net profit or loss. I know that 800 lbs heifers are being discounted 15 dollars because of the lack of conversion and yeild grade 4's are discounted $20 a hundred now but what will we see in the future? just some thoughts Bob H

I retained ownership with my 2008 & 9 calves, both heifers and steers, overall I was happy with how they performed. the first year I more or less broke even, what I got back from the feedyard said I lost money but my records said I broken even. Second year was very profitable. Problem was needing someone to risk it with me to make a truck load. The second year I just purchased enough to make a truck load, All from bull customers, I got individual results back. My biggest complaint was I lost some to bloat late in the stag. I like caring for my own cattle, it was hard sending them to someone else and hoping they would treat them like their own.

I guess I should add that what I sent were the same genetics both years yet the results varied.

I`ve sent small numbers a half dozen times in combined lots in university type deals...i have never made a dime of money; neither did any of the other consigners...always my tail end since the better sell as bulls...the grade has always been Angus average or above, 1150 usually the weight at .4 inch backfat....commensurate with 1200 lb mature cows I think...
the last thing of interest I noted was a famous hobby farm in KY sent 35 steers on the load I had 14...they were good looking, framey raschals assumed sired by prominent ai bulls and sons of such, since they were mainstream all the way...those cattle at .4 weighed about 1260; out gained my calves about .25/day as I remember...the striking thing was we had only 3 cab in the 14; about average...they had 1 cab in their 35 steers...
7 steers by Shoshone Fraser that I had more or less stockered to about 750lb on grass made 5 of 7 cab in Mo and gain was quite good as expected...so, I hope you make no sense of anything i`ve wriiten, because I never have made any sense of it by doing it ...same with the ultreasound I once used to do on bulls...
in my little world, I`ll rely more on you guys doing significant numbers of cattle sharing information

WOW!, Finally got untied from the windmill! That was a MAX job! Heck of a good slip knot! Never retained ownership on my own calves, but bought and fed other bull producers calves and made money because they were bought right. Best way to make money feeding cattle is to buy them right.

Will wrote:

WOW!, Finally got untied from the windmill! That was a MAX job! Heck of a good slip knot! Never retained ownership on my own calves, but bought and fed other bull producers calves and made money because they were bought right. Best way to make money feeding cattle is to buy them right.

Amen.

I agree somewhat about buying cattle right is a good way to make money, having cheap feed is another but If you have invested your life in raising better cattle then I think that selling them right is the best way to make money. In our industry every segment has to make money at some point to be viable and at the same time some segments will lose money. If you are in it until the end product is purchased you will have owned them while they make some money. Bob H

I understand the part about buying them right, but does that mean the seller sold them wrong?

If you are retaining ownership, are they "bought right"?

I guess I see it like this... my steers are going to end up in a feedyard, if they make money for the person I sell them to, I should bypass him and send them to the feedyard and keep the money he make from my calves.

In 2008-9 they were in the feedyard for 193 days I had 50% CAB 30% ch 20 Sel with a gain of 3.17 and a convergence of 5.46 yield grades of 40% 2's 60% 3's made .90 cents a head. I had them Aged and sourced so I got a $25 premium else-wise I would have lost $24.

In 2009-10 fed them for 184 days I had 10% CAB 10% CH 80% Sel with a gain of 3.08 converted 5.75 yield 5% 1's 42% 2's and 53% 3's made $180 a head

Of coarse I was very concern when the feed-yard got bombard with rain. I asked about it and they sent me this picture.

LCP, yes sometimes retained ownership cattle would be considered bought right. It all about figuring breakevens on fat cattle. Very seldom does every segment of the cattle industry make money on the same cattle. I use to put a simple chart in my bull sale catolog on how to figure breakevens on fat cattle. All you had to do was fill in the numbers.

cattlefax deems the ch-se price spread will become more important...bright future for the Wagyu type Angus bulls?

http://www.cattlefax.com/page_attachments/0001/2179/Trends_Oct_2012.pdf

Bright future for a geneticly balanced cow herd that is bred alike when seedless fruit is introduced to hit an end user wouldn't you think Mike. Bob H