Reflections from LL ©

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 6:50 am

How much credit should WYE angus get for the goodness in the shoshone cattle? I know LL has distilled the wye influence to a fine brew of good performing cattle. The wye influenced cow families here have survived selection pressure of time. We started with 20 some different cow families/lines and are now down to 7 and 5 of these trace back to wye influence of the late seventies early eighties. Bull selection can haunt you for generations, case in point in my herd is PS high pockets poor fertility.

Guest

Will wrote:: Tom D., totally clueless what your point is.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Mk, never been a Leachman cooperator. I am not much of a marketer but the bulls are always good enough to sell theirselves. Was a student of Jim Leachman though. Never missed his sale. Master breeder and Master marketer. Only person I ever met that knew and I mean KNEW bloodlines and genetics and could market them and I mean really market them. Everyone else I have met in this bull business could do only one or the other. I buy most of my herdbulls from the people that know genetics and fall short on marketing just like me. I really think LL knows genetic big time, but falls short on marketing. Two years ago we had rain the day of the bull sale and we could not even get the bulls to the sales barn so we set up panels close to the main road and had the bull sale in my sons garage with the bulls penned a couple hundred yards away. Had a good sale but several customers made the comment that they prefered to see the bulls when they buy them. Last year we lucked out and had the bull sale out side between rain shrowers. Built a ring outside out of panels. Had a good sale but would of been beyond screwed if it would of rained. This year and in the future we will have a video sale. Bull will be penned a couple hundred yards away from sales barn on green grass. Very very impressive site. Birthweights have been stacked at that weight from day one. Our hiefers are bred for a 90 pound calf and we expect them to calve on their own. You are more than welcome to come during calving next year while we calve. You will have to shrower and change clothes and footwear when you get here but you are welcome.

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 7:04 am

some might find this website interesting

http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 7:11 am

PatB wrote:: How much credit should WYE angus get for the goodness in the shoshone cattle? I know LL has distilled the wye influence to a fine brew of good performing cattle. The wye influenced cow families here have survived selection pressure of time. We started with 20 some different cow families/lines and are now down to 7 and 5 of these trace back to wye influence of the late seventies early eighties. Bull selection can haunt you for generations, case in point in my herd is PS high pockets poor fertility.

I'm sure Wye has had their share of fallouts Pat. What are they doing now to preserve this greatness? Like most registered breeders...sales drive breeding decisions.

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: Mk, never been a Leachman cooperator. I am not much of a marketer but the bulls are always good enough to sell theirselves. Was a student of Jim Leachman though. Never missed his sale. Master breeder and Master marketer. Only person I ever met that knew and I mean KNEW bloodlines and genetics and could market them and I mean really market them. Everyone else I have met in this bull business could do only one or the other. I buy most of my herdbulls from the people that know genetics and fall short on marketing just like me. I really think LL knows genetic big time, but falls short on marketing. Two years ago we had rain the day of the bull sale and we could not even get the bulls to the sales barn so we set up panels close to the main road and had the bull sale in my sons garage with the bulls penned a couple hundred yards away. Had a good sale but several customers made the comment that they prefered to see the bulls when they buy them. Last year we lucked out and had the bull sale out side between rain shrowers. Built a ring outside out of panels. Had a good sale but would of been beyond screwed if it would of rained. This year and in the future we will have a video sale. Bull will be penned a couple hundred yards away from sales barn on green grass. Very very impressive site. Birthweights have been stacked at that weight from day one. Our hiefers are bred for a 90 pound calf and we expect them to calve on their own. You are more than welcome to come during calving next year while we calve. You will have to shrower and change clothes and footwear when you get here but you are welcome.

The only thing I`m sure I would have to do is shower and change clothes before I got back in my vechicle...Jim Leachman was a master of con and absolutely nothing else, that`s why I asked the question...don`t imitate him too much; you may end up with the same results

Posts : 286 Join date : 2011-02-17 Location : SW Idaho

Will it is simple math you put the bull in this spring, the cow calves next spring ,you wean the calf next fall you, you breed the heifer next spring, She calves the next spring (a percentage of our crossbred heifers that were 2nd or 3rd cross did not have any milk I think that their male and female cromozomes were mixed up) That 3 years she dosen't breed back for the 4th year and if she does her heifer calf would realy teach us a lesson. The math result that we were getting boiled down to about 12.5% of these crosses ending up being 10 year old cows.

About our operation yes we run on BLM ground. The reason it never was homesteaded is that it is to dry to do anything except graze. The cost of these ranches is in buying the AU ranch which is a private property with the adjacent BLM permits tyed to the land. We also lease several different propertys from folks who got trapped in to small of economies of scale and also not understanding why their cattle were doing what they were. Cows to big and unproductive over the 5 years I talk about.

Got to go Today is the entry for the Jordan Valley Big Loop rodeo

Bob H

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

PatB wrote:: How much credit should WYE angus get for the goodness in the shoshone cattle? I know LL has distilled the wye influence to a fine brew of good performing cattle. The wye influenced cow families here have survived selection pressure of time. We started with 20 some different cow families/lines and are now down to 7 and 5 of these trace back to wye influence of the late seventies early eighties. Bull selection can haunt you for generations, case in point in my herd is PS high pockets poor fertility.

Pat, you have been here all this time and have learned so little...disappointing...
you started with "lines"? what is a "line"? show me the pedigree of a "line" you started with...

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

MVCatt wrote:

PatB wrote:: How much credit should WYE angus get for the goodness in the shoshone cattle? I know LL has distilled the wye influence to a fine brew of good performing cattle. The wye influenced cow families here have survived selection pressure of time. We started with 20 some different cow families/lines and are now down to 7 and 5 of these trace back to wye influence of the late seventies early eighties. Bull selection can haunt you for generations, case in point in my herd is PS high pockets poor fertility.

I'm sure Wye has had their share of fallouts Pat. What are they doing now to preserve this greatness? Like most registered breeders...sales drive breeding decisions.

and then this is what makes it all worthwhile...thank you Chris for knowing, and also for not sitting on your hands...it`s those nice guy knowers out there sitting on their hands instead of shoveling that let`s this BS get higher and higher...

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, yes I would expect nothing less from you. Shrower before you leave. I do not have a problem with that. Maybe you should bring your own shrower water along. I never let a person's personal life affect my opinion of him. It is pure business. Jim Leachman was a master breeder and a master marketer and I will not waste my time argueing it. Seems people either liked or dispised him. No fear of me ending up like he did. I am not a very good marketer! Say when you have your sale next year go into a building away from the bulls and then try and sell them. You might be surprised!

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Bob H, good luck at the rodeo and thanks for the responce. Have more questions about your crossbreeding program 20 years ago. What breeds were you crossing? On BLM land does cow size matter? Would it cost more to run on owned land?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Pat B. thanks for the site. Easier to read and try to understand the program than the 100 pages of Reflections and growing every day!!!!!!!! MK, you are right. You asked me to stir the pot and now we are rocking and rolling. Not to surprised you called me a mole hill, and you might use the rodent to get rid of me. You related to Cofellt? Remember you asked me to stir the pot. Heck if the fire gets to hot just rodent me!

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: MK, yes I would expect nothing less from you. Shrower before you leave. I do not have a problem with that. Maybe you should bring your own shrower water along. I never let a person's personal life affect my opinion of him. It is pure business. Jim Leachman was a master breeder and a master marketer and I will not waste my time argueing it. Seems people either liked or dispised him. No fear of me ending up like he did. I am not a very good marketer! Say when you have your sale next year go into a building away from the bulls and then try and sell them. You might be surprised!

been going into a building away from the bulls and selling them; well, some of them, a long time...the greatest obstacle in my path to selling is the BS of the business...that`s why it`s fun to meet it head on...
when I looked at your birthweights, I laughed...the bw`s destroyed the rest of your "data"...
back to Tru-line, the primary component is producing more from less...no matter what you have in your current cattle, heterosis, BS, WHATEVER...you are not changing the efficiency of overall beef production one iota...that takes a system, not registurds, purebreds, crossbreds, you name it...more from more, less from less, SOS

FIRE too HOT? Evil or Very Mad

"HELL", I`m with you, remember? Smile

I`m a proponent of crossbred bulls, if the parent lines are there to use to make them correctly...

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 8:40 am

The drummer had struck a slightly false note in these last remarks. He should not have said "old man." Until this I had thought him merely an amiable person who wished to do a favor. But "old man" came in wrong. It had a hateful taint of his profession; the being too soon with everybody, the celluloid good-fellowship that passes for ivory with nine in ten of the city crowd. But not so with the sons of the sagebrush. They live nearer nature, and they know better.

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 9:47 am

Will wrote:: Grassfarmer, ask D Biggs which thread at Advantage he found the picture of Traitmaker and you will find your answers. It will be easier that way.

Why? because you are unable to explain this mysterious trait "soft sided" and what it's economic importance is? I suspect it's just a bullshit marketing phrase like your hero Leachman's bulls that were "king of the world". I certainly don't recall LL mentioning this supposedly important trait in any of his extensive writings.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Once again I explained it on Advantage Cattle. I think it is on the backfat thread or muscle thread. I do wonder what LL thinks about soft sided cattle. The term soft sided was coined by purebred continental breeders. Now Angus breeders have jumped on the soft sided bandwagon also. How do you raise such good grass in September. I'd put the plow to that land and make some serious money. Why waste it on commerical cattle production? Why so angry at Leachman?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

MK, how do you measure inputs? Noticed you had a banner that less for more or something like that, so how do you measure your inputs? You have a comment on soft sided cattle? Think LL would?

Posts : 183 Join date : 2012-04-17

Selling the bulls in a building without the bulls there caused a huge problem if the buyer never got his first choice, and only got tougher if the buyer never got his second choice. If it works for you heck do it. I know I have found a better way!

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 11:15 am

Tom D wrote:: The drummer had struck a slightly false note in these last remarks. He should not have said "old man." Until this I had thought him merely an amiable person who wished to do a favor. But "old man" came in wrong. It had a hateful taint of his profession; the being too soon with everybody, the celluloid good-fellowship that passes for ivory with nine in ten of the city crowd. But not so with the sons of the sagebrush. They live nearer nature, and they know better.

But the Virginian blandly accepted "old man" from his victim: he had a game to play.

Moreover, going to bed before nine o'clock upon the first evening in many weeks that a town's resources were open to you, would be a dull proceeding.

Subject: Re: Reflections from LL © Sat May 05, 2012 11:20 am

Will wrote:: MK, ...... You have a comment on soft sided cattle? Think LL would?

Desperately looking for someone to explain what soft sided means...

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

Will wrote:: Selling the bulls in a building without the bulls there caused a huge problem if the buyer never got his first choice, and only got tougher if the buyer never got his second choice. If it works for you heck do it. I know I have found a better way!

if they aren`t buying on your "data", why do you concoct it?

cow size and milk level are by far the best measures of what constitutes cow input, the "less" side..

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:

Will wrote:: Selling the bulls in a building without the bulls there caused a huge problem if the buyer never got his first choice, and only got tougher if the buyer never got his second choice. If it works for you heck do it. I know I have found a better way!

if they aren`t buying on your "data", why do you concoct it?

cow size and milk level are by far the best measures of what constitutes cow input, the "less" side..

MK, Is this measured on an individual basis or are you saying in general the smaller, lower milk cows require less?

Admin Posts : 3797 Join date : 2010-09-21

in general; measured only by common sense and experience of owning some Charolais cows

Posts : 109 Join date : 2011-12-17 Location : nemo

You asked me to stir the pot and now we are rocking and rolling.

Just like cooking a big pot of Chili all day long, stirring the pot now and then is needed to blend the spices throughout, not to mention it does release a temporary burst of pleasant aroma. However, a lot of patience and self-discipline between stirs is needed if the spices are to do their work beneath the lid. Slowly, without our continual interference, the product creates itself, one that rarely fails to meet our expectations at the end of a long day.

I never worried about needing to over stir unless I had the fire to hot and worried about it getting burned.

Kendra

Posts : 521 Join date : 2010-09-28

MKeeney wrote:: in general; measured only by common sense and experience of owning some Charolais cows

Might this be described as "get the good ones up and the bad ones down"? sort of like livestock judging where it is more important not to make big mistakes than to always get a 50 on the class?