PIC...modern swine breeding {and management, and micro management}

My main concern is stress and most of the stress around here is initiated by me

With what little I have had to do with the Shoshone cattle they have better than average intelligence and mental strength, subsequently they tend to not get overly stress over minor issues.
I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.

I do enjoy spending time with cattle that are mentally active always up to something, even when resting they have inquisitive eyes.

After stress I have problems with outliers, typically I treat a few calves for pneumonia in the late fall and generally the biggest calves are affected. The runts on the other hand many times come from cows with too much dihydrogen monoxide milk at calving or uninspired mothers, if the calves are under the weather in the first week or two they don’t have much of a chance.

On the vaccinations, I vaccinate at a month for calves to be sold off the cows, but any cattle staying on the place for their second summer get their first shots a month after weaning and again on the replacement heifers just before breeding, no shots for the cows or scour shots. Just don’t ask why

Grassfarmer wrote:

patb wrote:

Grassfarmer wrote:

I have lots of questions to ask on the subject of overall herd health and a possible genetic component.
DV - what kind of vaccine program do you use or are you au natural?
Any opinions on the vaccines in common use - esp. the modified live variety?
On the intake side what do people think the effects of feeding GMO derived feeds is on the immune system of an animal, same goes for feeding crops that have been treated with a lot of sprays - especially glyphosates. Could these be compromising the immune systems?
What about feeding a natural type hay made from diverse species versus feeding monoculture grain crop silage where the plants themselves are of a less complex (than grass) nature? what about feeding corn silage - made from the simplest plant of all?

Do you think what you are seeing with the Shoshone cattle could be that they are prepotent for the "correctly functioning endocrine system" trait due to selection for type?
I'm not making bold claims for our cows but we certainly see lines where the animals never get sick from anything and that is true of the base family we are line breeding from which is encouraging to me.
I'll quit there before this turns into a novel but I'll post another question specific to a pneumonia problem we have on a new thread if anyone is interested in offering an opinion.

I have attended several talks about minerals and it has been agreed that highly fertilized crops do not have the mineral content of "natural hay or pasture". Alfalfa and clover are poor sources of selenium and other trace minerals. It has been my experience that the cows eat more mineral when consuming silage of any type and monocrop feed may not have all the minerals animals need. I have no experience feeding GMO derived feed or forage raised with glyphosates and like it that way .

So who should decide whether the cow needs more mineral supplement - the cow or the owner? The highly fertilized grain silage we have often bought from our Hutterite neighbours tends to be short on minerals but there is enough salt in it due to the high fertilizer regime that the cows will barely touch a mineralised salt block. Cows reckon they have way more need when they are on our tame summer pastures, but not so much on wild/bush/native pastures.
You'd be surprised how much glyphosate treated feed there is out here - get a late cool harvest season and many guys desiccate their barley to speed ripening - then there is the college learning backed "yellow feed" practice which is lazy mans green feed. Spray with Roundup, wait until it's killed then cut and bale. That just makes me shudder when you use a chemical toxic enough to kill plants then feed it to cows. When you read the cumulative effect of glyphosates and how they tie up minerals in the soil making them inaccessible to plants you've got to wonder the effect on cattle eating the crops.

I will let the cows tell me how much mineral they need by how much they consume or don't. My choice of feeding minerals has been dictated by past experience and herd health. Every region has its on mineral requirements.

I raise all the feed for the cow herd so chemical contamination is not an issue as far as I know. The only source of possible contamination is outside chicken manure applied as fertilizer.

df wrote:

Tom D wrote:

df, will you agree to the following?

Breeding Paternal (terminal) lines is a matter of matching the product with the marketplace, utilizing quantitative data and breeding SCIENCE.

while

Breeding Maternal lines is a matter of matching the cow to her environment, utilizing qualitative observation and breeding ARTISTRY.

TD, trying to work this out.

I have always said breeding cattle is an art and a science. I had always hoped the maternal selection would become more accurate.

OH REALLY??? You've always said that, and you've always hoped that? How fricken' old are you anyway df?

TD, young and dumb, but smart enough to realize it.

Happy New Year Everybody!

df wrote:

My family supported the smaller seedstock producers until they went out of business. This was probably going to happen relatively soon anyway as better boars could be purchased from the large genetic companies. Pedigree is not really important to us as the company keeps records of the boars we buy and can supply unrelated boars as needed. The data is important as well as type. Boars that can't hold up and produce crappy females are a huge money sink and must be avoided. The data doesn't have to be extreme but must keep us competitive. The days of buying boars on type alone have been over for a while. We get paid on the rail, not on what they look like going into the plant.

What does a sow do? or not do? to achieve crappy female status?

How do you consistently produce non crappy females while keeping inbreeding low?

How does the data help the boar hold up?

You keep referring to type...phenotype or genotype? I guess I have to ask that because you have stated the inbreeding has been kept low. So...how do know if what is standing before you is real or an outcrossed mirage?... could that have been part of the selection problem all along?

it is my understanding that modern day boars can`t hold up physically to breed sows naturally...AI is not a "tool", but a necessity...

MKeeney wrote:

it is my understanding that modern day boars can`t hold up physically to breed sows naturally...AI is not a "tool", but a necessity...

My brother buys boars. He does not AI the sows.

df wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

it is my understanding that modern day boars can`t hold up physically to breed sows naturally...AI is not a "tool", but a necessity...

My brother buys boars. He does not AI the sows.

my cousin works for a MEGA SOW operation in Indiana...all sows are bred AI; he says the terminal boars would not have the stamina to breed many sows naturally...if you can buy a boar or boars, I`m sure they can`t be the top "indexers"...kinda like cattle breeding, if you ain`t AI`ing, you gotta be leaving a lot on the table....right? at least that`s what your cohorts say...

Pearls before Swine by Stephan Pastis

Elly Elephant was sick of Henry Hippo
So she sat in her kitchen and tried to envision her dream man
I will take this empty basket and put in one avocado for each trait I want in a man
So she put in one avocado for sensitivity, and one for handsome, and one for adventurous
And I want him to be dependable, putting in another avocado. but when she did out fell adventurous
Well, he at least needs to be non-superficial, adding another avocado, but out dropped handsome
Okay, he can't be needy squeezing in another avocado, but out fell sensitive
The basket can't hold all the avocados Elly cried in despair
I'll simply have to be happy with the few avocados I have
Which was none because Henry Hippo turned them all into guacamole

I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.


Sure hope that is not true across the board, or I'm screwed with my quiet and gentle "White Faces". Don't doctor much around here but do vaccinate
on a regular basis. By the way, love this site and the interesting conversations that take place. I also enjoy viewing the pictures of REAL ANGUS CATTLE.
Even though I raise Polled Herefords, I do feel I am outside the registered mainstream as well and like your statement:

"A reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream"

DM

mrvictordomino wrote:

I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.


Sure hope that is not true across the board, or I'm screwed with my quiet and gentle "White Faces". Don't doctor much around here but do vaccinate
on a regular basis. By the way, love this site and the interesting conversations that take place. I also enjoy viewing the pictures of REAL ANGUS CATTLE.
Even though I raise Polled Herefords, I do feel I am outside the registered mainstream as well and like your statement:

"A reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream"
DM

I was blown away by the insightfulness of this post from Hilly, another of those moments when I realize how long I've been "looking" at cows without really "seeing". Thinking back to the cows we've had it contained a lot of truths for me. I'd never thought before about the few flighty, higher headed cattle we've owned over the years - and how none of them ever grew old with us. The only thing I wasn't clear on was what he meant by cancerous in this context - was it used in the sense of being unhealthy - eating away at you - or was it meant in the sense of causing clinical cases of cancer?

The pigs are smaller at birth but seem to be growing faster. Only data supplied was BF, LEA and age to 250. No pedigree supplied. Can get better boars if desired by spending more money.

Packer is buying the hogs live without direct verbal concern for leanness. If yield suffers, then producer would be notified.

df wrote:

The pigs are smaller at birth but seem to be growing faster. Only data supplied was BF, LEA and age to 250. No pedigree supplied. Can get better boars if desired by spending more money.

Packer is buying the hogs live without direct verbal concern for leanness. If yield suffers, then producer would be notified.

what would make these boars "better"? do the boars have breeding value or just data?

mrvictordomino wrote:

I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.


Sure hope that is not true across the board, or I'm screwed with my quiet and gentle "White Faces". Don't doctor much around here but do vaccinate
on a regular basis. By the way, love this site and the interesting conversations that take place. I also enjoy viewing the pictures of REAL ANGUS CATTLE.
Even though I raise Polled Herefords, I do feel I am outside the registered mainstream as well and like your statement:

"A reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream"

DM

I kind of botched my thought process, as it is a bit hard to explain the difference between quite reasonable cattle and pets.

Pets to me are cattle that see me as their provider and generally are content and healthy if I keep busy making things easier for them. This applies mostly too bought cattle around here, as the home raised know their job description, but some cow families are better at teaching and mothering then others, increasing their odds at the sort gate.

When the newcomers realize they have to work for a living, I find the “pets” for lack of a better word, tend to get depressed and stand around sulking in disbelief.

I don’t know if there is a genetic factor or if it’s culture... both I would suspect, but my observation with cattle coming into a new culture or management system, the ones with strong active minds have little trouble adjusting and thus benefiting the herd health.

Grassy, cancerous may have been the wrong word, but depression in the cattle seems to spread if allowed. Walking the cattle helps and can reverse some of the effects, but if I don’t cull the culprits they tend to continue to subtract from the health of the herd.

DF , What do you get by spending more money for the sires ? Jon

jonken wrote:

DF , What do you get by spending more money for the sires ? Jon

I assume some combination of faster growing, leaner and/or larger LE.

df wrote:

jonken wrote:

DF , What do you get by spending more money for the sires ? Jon

I assume some combination of faster growing, leaner and/or larger LE.

Are you sure you get anything for the extra money, your answer is not very convincing

df wrote:

jonken wrote:

DF , What do you get by spending more money for the sires ? Jon

I assume some combination of faster growing, leaner and/or larger LE.

Then I can assume the purchaser / producer of these sires will garner more profit and the consumer of end product will want more ? Jon

Hilly wrote:

mrvictordomino wrote:

I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.


Sure hope that is not true across the board, or I'm screwed with my quiet and gentle "White Faces". Don't doctor much around here but do vaccinate
on a regular basis. By the way, love this site and the interesting conversations that take place. I also enjoy viewing the pictures of REAL ANGUS CATTLE.
Even though I raise Polled Herefords, I do feel I am outside the registered mainstream as well and like your statement:

"A reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream"

DM

I kind of botched my thought process, as it is a bit hard to explain the difference between quite reasonable cattle and pets.

Pets to me are cattle that see me as their provider and generally are content and healthy if I keep busy making things easier for them. This applies mostly too bought cattle around here, as the home raised know their job description, but some cow families are better at teaching and mothering then others, increasing their odds at the sort gate.

When the newcomers realize they have to work for a living, I find the “pets” for lack of a better word, tend to get depressed and stand around sulking in disbelief.

I don’t know if there is a genetic factor or if it’s culture... both I would suspect, but my observation with cattle coming into a new culture or management system, the ones with strong active minds have little trouble adjusting and thus benefiting the herd health.

Grassy, cancerous may have been the wrong word, but depression in the cattle seems to spread if allowed. Walking the cattle helps and can reverse some of the effects, but if I don’t cull the culprits they tend to continue to subtract from the health of the herd.

I got it. It was poetry, created in the mind of genius of observation that few possess. I am working on possessing it. The exchange of such off-the-wall ideas, obsersvation, ideology of which has never before been available, is beauty, poetry, and epic in the timeline of mankind's creation. It is not just about cows. They are merely the easel, upon which the mind is splattered and brushed, expanding into a smathering of strokes, until a new form emerges.


Thank you for helping to create new forms Craig, and never apologize for it.


Bootheel

modern day Ohio State University BULL SALE index...

Bulls will be evaluated by a four star grading system using EPDs for Birth Weight, Weaning Weight, Yearling
Weight, Milk, Intramuscular Fat and Rib-Eye Area and where bulls rank within their respective breeds relative to percentile breakdowns provided by the national breed associations. Bulls will be cataloged and sold in order of greatest stars to least stars.

Bootheel wrote:

Hilly wrote:

mrvictordomino wrote:

I’m not talking about pet gentle and quiet cattle, I have more health problems with that group then the high headed flighty cattle as flighty cattle seem to be strong minded but the high strung stress catches up to them and in a purposeful domestic setting they generally are culled before the sluggish minded pets.

The pets on the other hand don’t get enough physical or mental exercise and tend to suffer from depression easily and although these “gentle” cattle seem relatively harmless aside from being more susceptible to illness I try to steer clear of that type as few things depress me more than being in the vicinity of dull depressed eyes, people or critters, as its cancerous.


Sure hope that is not true across the board, or I'm screwed with my quiet and gentle "White Faces". Don't doctor much around here but do vaccinate
on a regular basis. By the way, love this site and the interesting conversations that take place. I also enjoy viewing the pictures of REAL ANGUS CATTLE.
Even though I raise Polled Herefords, I do feel I am outside the registered mainstream as well and like your statement:

"A reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream"

DM

I kind of botched my thought process, as it is a bit hard to explain the difference between quite reasonable cattle and pets.

Pets to me are cattle that see me as their provider and generally are content and healthy if I keep busy making things easier for them. This applies mostly too bought cattle around here, as the home raised know their job description, but some cow families are better at teaching and mothering then others, increasing their odds at the sort gate.

When the newcomers realize they have to work for a living, I find the “pets” for lack of a better word, tend to get depressed and stand around sulking in disbelief.

I don’t know if there is a genetic factor or if it’s culture... both I would suspect, but my observation with cattle coming into a new culture or management system, the ones with strong active minds have little trouble adjusting and thus benefiting the herd health.

Grassy, cancerous may have been the wrong word, but depression in the cattle seems to spread if allowed. Walking the cattle helps and can reverse some of the effects, but if I don’t cull the culprits they tend to continue to subtract from the health of the herd.

I got it. It was poetry, created in the mind of genius of observation that few possess. I am working on possessing it. The exchange of such off-the-wall ideas, obsersvation, ideology of which has never before been available, is beauty, poetry, and epic in the timeline of mankind's creation. It is not just about cows. They are merely the easel, upon which the mind is splattered and brushed, expanding into a smathering of strokes, until a new form emerges.


Thank you for helping to create new forms Craig, and never apologize for it.


Bootheel

My cows moo at me whenever they see me, I think it is because I am a cattle whisperer and they love and worship me. Lynn says they are just hoping to get a bale.

Not sure about depression, they do seem to perk up when I put out a bale.

Marginally cheaper than a trip to a cow Psychiatrist for herd therapy.

Gregory Walker wrote:

My cows moo at me whenever they see me, I think it is because I am a cattle whisperer and they love and worship me. Lynn says they are just hoping to get a bale.

Not sure about depression, they do seem to perk up when I put out a bale.

Marginally cheaper than a trip to a cow Psychiatrist for herd therapy.

I would think that would depend on how much you charge an hour for spending time with the cattle.

Since I’m the one in need of therapy, and I generally charge $30 an hour for my time(I have never been to a shrink but I’m fairly sure they charge more than that) I figure so I still owe my cattle.

As far as them mooing for feed or in a cattle whisperer worshiping manner Bud Williams has some good video on correcting that and was one of my main reasons for going down to see him.

That being said, I will admit although I made progress to that end it does take consistent time allocation, making it hard for me not to regress due to my stellar time management skills

Happy New Year everyone, This site seemed pretty quiet over the holidays. Yesterday was the day last year that we had to start feeding so it was a bit of an anniversary for us to celebrate as we keep grazing past it this year. Have been looking for more cows to get our numbers up but haven't found the right kind yet. Hope you all are having similar luck.