A Grey Area

That brings me back to the assumption I had, that feet were harder to fix in the dairy cows then the udders and Larry making the comment to me that it may just be that the breeders had spent more time concentrating on fixing udders then feet, decreasing the range of variance and increasing hereditability.

The dairy with its more constant environment would have a time advantage over beef, I would think, in increasing the hereditability of a desired trait.

Mean Spirit wrote:

For you, Mike. I know you love the tanbark.

I won't attempt to justify this adventure. I guess she weighs a couple hundred pounds more than her contemporaries that didn't leave the foothills when she did. I'm guessing thats due to environmental differences, plus she is an outcross-- 1/4 Hoodoo on top, dam is full sister to my bull.

But I still think she's pretty.

At least she's bred to her dam's full brother for her first calf.

John,
does our mutual breed have an aged cow-calf class; and if so, is the entry deadline for Louisville past?

MK, in the vicinity of a second childhood

Yes, there is a cow calf class. No age restriction, I'm pretty sure. Not sure abt the deadline for Louisville, but your probably fine for awhile yet.

Shall I have Cliff give you a call?

MS, imagining how cool it would be if I could be showstring buddies with MK.

MKeeney wrote:

Mean Spirit wrote:

For you, Mike. I know you love the tanbark.

I won't attempt to justify this adventure. I guess she weighs a couple hundred pounds more than her contemporaries that didn't leave the foothills when she did. I'm guessing thats due to environmental differences, plus she is an outcross-- 1/4 Hoodoo on top, dam is full sister to my bull.

But I still think she's pretty.

At least she's bred to her dam's full brother for her first calf.

John,
does our mutual breed have an aged cow-calf class; and if so, is the entry deadline for Louisville past?

MK, in the vicinity of a second childhood

I`m not going to do it...I just noticed the little calf is so embarrassed by such talk he`s hiding his face...not a good show quality!

I'd like to be there when you halter break her. GW in the vicinity of looking for a cow breaking donkey for Mike.

Gregory Walker wrote:

I'd like to be there when you halter break her. GW in the vicinity of looking for a cow breaking donkey for Mike.

being a good mother, I`ll just break the calf; she`ll follow...Greg, I`was kinda hoping you might be the judge...you`d be more than understanding, having been here...and a championship bequest to my cow could net you some really good price breaks on some heifers...

Mike,

How did you select the Charolais bull/cows to start your grey line? Type, local, availability, ...? Are these another line beyond the Hoo Doo? How closely linked would yours be with John's? Were they selected based on maternal or growth?

EddieM wrote:

Mike,

How did you select the Charolais bull/cows to start your grey line? Type, local, availability, ...? Are these another line beyond the Hoo Doo? How closely linked would yours be with John's? Were they selected based on maternal or growth?

strictly to sample closed herd Hoodoo Charolais genetics to learn about them...from my one bull selection and 35 cows are so I`ve seen in this country, too wild for us...probably fine on 200,000 acres in WY...
Current stuff that appears to have merit; sheer happenstance...and sort...

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

was his name Anvil? if not, should have been..

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

I would think any bull over 2200lbs is bigger than it need be - but a Charolais bull at 2700lb would be less "too big" than an Angus bull at 2400lb. Maybe I'm harking back to an earlier era when Charolais were meant to be terminal, Angus maternal?

Grassfarmer wrote:

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

I would think any bull over 2200lbs is bigger than it need be - but a Charolais bull at 2700lb would be less "too big" than an Angus bull at 2400lb. Maybe I'm harking back to an earlier era when Charolais were meant to be terminal, Angus maternal?

the circle of life eh? I`ve decided to select my chars in a maternal direction; knowing there`s a lot of good Angus terminal bulls to use on them...BUT...there`s still a lot of room for a better Angus terminal...

Not named Anvil, Mike. Maybe they can get his name changed. They claimed he was the best beef bull in America. I thought it was interesting that he was bred at Camp Cooley.

Mean Spirit wrote:

Not named Anvil, Mike. Maybe they can get his name changed. They claimed he was the best beef bull in America. I thought it was interesting that he was bred at Camp Cooley.

Never heard of Camp Cooley - is that different from 's Camp Koolaid?

Grassfarmer wrote:

Mean Spirit wrote:

Not named Anvil, Mike. Maybe they can get his name changed. They claimed he was the best beef bull in America. I thought it was interesting that he was bred at Camp Cooley.

Never heard of Camp Cooley - is that different from 's Camp Koolaid?

not much difference...

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

I tried to buy the bull from Camp Cooley when The guy in TN bought him but my pockets weren't deep enough. I did buy his mother. She is VERY wide and VERY deep but not VERY tall. FS 5.5. She probably weighed about 2000 lbs two weeks ago before she calved.

I don't think the bull is quite as big as you do MS. Maybe 2400 lbs and FS7. He would.nt have been that big now if I had bought him because he woulbn't have had nearly as much to eat. I have used him extensively via AI. I have some sold some sons and have some daughters that are about to calve. I don't think any of them are too big. They are all very good but they do have too much sheath. I will use a maternal sib to himthat we raised next year.

MS, I saw you at the sale yesterday. I looked for after it was over but I think you had already left.

whitecow wrote:

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

I tried to buy the bull from Camp Cooley when The guy in TN bought him but my pockets weren't deep enough. I did buy his mother. She is VERY wide and VERY deep but not VERY tall. FS 5.5. She probably weighed about 2000 lbs two weeks ago before she calved.

I don't think the bull is quite as big as you do MS. Maybe 2400 lbs and FS7. He would.nt have been that big now if I had bought him because he woulbn't have had nearly as much to eat. I have used him extensively via AI. I have some sold some sons and have some daughters that are about to calve. I don't think any of them are too big. They are all very good but they do have too much sheath. I will use a maternal sib to himthat we raised next year.

MS, I saw you at the sale yesterday. I looked for after it was over but I think you had already left.

good seeing you post whitecow, and always enjoy your pics...we`re not a one color show here

MKeeney wrote:

Gregory Walker wrote:

I'd like to be there when you halter break her. GW in the vicinity of looking for a cow breaking donkey for Mike.

being a good mother, I`ll just break the calf; she`ll follow...Greg, I`was kinda hoping you might be the judge...you`d be more than understanding, having been here...and a championship bequest to my cow could net you some really good price breaks on some heifers...

Consider it done!

whitecow wrote:

Mean Spirit wrote:

Eb, no idea how related mine are to Mike's-- the legend around Mike's Charolais is that there aren't any pedigrees. I'd sure like to know.

Attended a Charolais dispersal in Tennessee yesterday. Saw this bull sell for a big price.

http://www.bovine-elite.com/charolais/CooleyRoyce1107T39_lg.jpg

He looks like his picture-- nice bull, too much sheath, otherwise pretty good. But really big-- I bet frame 8 plus, in sort of pasture condition, but I bet he still weighed 2700.

He's too big, right?

MS, as always, wondering how big my cows are supposed to be.

I tried to buy the bull from Camp Cooley when The guy in TN bought him but my pockets weren't deep enough. I did buy his mother. She is VERY wide and VERY deep but not VERY tall. FS 5.5. She probably weighed about 2000 lbs two weeks ago before she calved.

I don't think the bull is quite as big as you do MS. Maybe 2400 lbs and FS7. He would.nt have been that big now if I had bought him because he woulbn't have had nearly as much to eat. I have used him extensively via AI. I have some sold some sons and have some daughters that are about to calve. I don't think any of them are too big. They are all very good but they do have too much sheath. I will use a maternal sib to himthat we raised next year.

MS, I saw you at the sale yesterday. I looked for after it was over but I think you had already left.

My measurers could be off, I guess. He seemed plenty big to me, though.

I did see that y'all own the dam. I liked the bull well enough-- he's sure better than most, but the sheath is sort of brangus-y. That said, I actually tried to buy my favorite yearling daughter of the bull, but she was some other folks' favorite too, and they thought a couple thousand more of her than I did.

Sorry i missed you. I left kinda quick-- I actually drove down, and was anxious to try to drive home last night. Actually made it, but it was late.

So where does a FS 5.5 cow weighing 2000lbs fit on the table of framescore/projected mature cow weights near the bottom of the page at this link

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

Grassfarmer wrote:

So where does a FS 5.5 cow weighing 2000lbs fit on the table of framescore/projected mature cow weights near the bottom of the page at this link

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

To be fair, she probably wouldn't be a 2000 lb cow in our normal environment. She has been used heavily as a donor. She was way overconditioned heading into this pregnancy.

I can't speak to the chart. But I can say that this cow (and her daughters) do exactly what I want her to do. She produces sons that have a lot of growth and muscle. The folks that I sell bulls to here in TX mostly have crossbred cows with a little brahman influence. They sell their calves by the pound at weaning. They want bulls that will provide muscle and especially pounds. I think her type does a great job of producing what my customers want and need.

Does she cost more for me to keep than a 1500 lb cow? Probably, but I don't know how to measure that. Until I start selling all of my bulls at the same price like Mike, I am certain that she will be one of my most profitable cows. Her sons have been the first to sell regardsless of their price. I would be very pleased if my average was just like her.

[/quote]
good seeing you post whitecow, and always enjoy your pics...we`re not a one color show here [/quote]

Thanks, Mike. I'll try to get some pics soon of my Char x Wag experiment. It's been fun.

MS and whitecow, what is your opinion of Harlan Rogers' operation? I know nothing except he is south of me.

Quote :

The folks that I sell bulls to here in TX mostly have crossbred cows with a little brahman influence.

as it should be

Rogers Bar HR has been around forever-- probably had Charolais cattle back to the fifties. I've never visited them, but should've I guess. Dr. Rogers died within the last year- he was a dentist, and a cattleman, founder of the herd. I knew him and talked to him a lot when we were in the same place. The sons are running it now. The story is that they are less interested in the registered purebred world, so we'll see where that goes.

Impression is that he was a pretty serious cattleman- a big herd of Charolais cows, mostly pasture bred, some use of AI and ET. Lots of stocker cattle. Pretty seroous abt growing grass.

For the charolais, A good bit of inbreeding because he tended to use lots of different sons of his better cows, and the herd was essentially closed. Reputationally, herd selection has been all about pounds of performance on grass. I've no doubt that the cows are not pampered. Not a lot of "breed changers" from the program, but a bull called HBR Performer 181 was a popular bull in the early rush to epds, and he was in stud for Select Sires. I think he was a pretty useful bull. Several very popular cow families that were popularized by Morven Farms and Three Trees Ranch are based on daughters of a cow that was born at Rogers. These cattle are some f the better documented marbling cows in the breed. But, it should be noted that this cow was born out of a bred heifer that Rogers bought at a sae in NC back in 83 for $ 800 so the sale manager would announce their upcoming sale date from the block. Not really Rogers-bred, but they have used the progeny of that cow extensively. My best cow is from this family.

My impression is that the herd could use another sort or two for udders and feet, but that there's a lot of good in there. Sometimes not too pretty.

Kinda sounds like a selection program along the lines of Pinebank...good story MS...