The Near Perfect Cow

Eddie, I think you are overlooking the fact that many purebred cattle reside in an environment but don't actually live in it. You can overcome most of the natural environmental factors at a price - barns, shade, fans, heaters, fancy feeds. I don't know how much environmental adaption even features in the lives of some purebred cattle they way they are kept. Like talking about the grazing ability of dairy cows that never go out on pasture.

Certainly easy to move genetics around in this day and age - sent a liner load out to Alberta this morning and they are in their new home 700 miles away tonight. Hopefully the move west and north will be easier than us coming east and south.

thank god for a customer who overfeeds, most underfeed...that's usually lack of knowledge, but  and surrogates have been influential in creating a "something from nothing" mentality...no wait, I`m getting the hypocrite    mixed up with the atheist Lawrence Krauss I`ve been embarrassed more than once by how my genetics looked and performed primarily to very poor "something" designated as feed ...

Teaching and writing, to me, is really just seduction; you go to where people are and you find something that they're interested in and you try and use that to convince them that they should be interested in what you have to say. LK

a MATERNAL/TERMINAL concept seems so rational to me, but when was rational ever seductive ?

To carry on your religious theme , like the Israelite's Sabbath (7th) year, 6 years of buying and pampering registered breeding stock yields to the average of a 7th year Sabbath when all work ceases on a ranch or farm after the complete and total dispersal. I think any poster or reader who still endures my posts here or even checks in occasionally at KC are beyond the pampering stage or disillusion. I have not shipped cattle west or very far north but sheep have gone there. As far as I know, they have done well. Some to FL did not make it beyond alligators and coyotes so that has skewed my data on extreme southern shifts. There was the one that came to you and apparently suffered some sort of head trauma on the trip. I think I let you have it free but did not pay for burial. Probably just evolutionary selection.

Posting does not require data as opinions and trivia post as good as any and the readers need to decide: "We post, you decide". But my opinion is that the cattle species are more fickle in moving or changing environments than St. Croix sheep. Our sheep are different as "we raise then ruff" and wool breeds and pampered breeds moving here to the SE USA need to come with a backhoe and operator for burial simplicity. The late Dr. Leroy Boyd at Miss St was very instrumental in my thoughts and practices of adaptation of a flock or herd. He started with 20+ sheep and was forced to build a flock with 2 remaining ewes and intense linebreeding. Again, I wander.

Cattle, from my LIMITED experiences, succeed at a rate of about 15% when moved to the fescue region of SC without the barns, fans, ... This would include 50 mile moves. "There's no place like home-e-e, there's no place like home". The good of AI is the chance for gestational programming. As a repeat, we have had plenty of failures with AI but successes improve when the second gestational programming occurs and the 25% out-crosses in the 2nd generation can blend in and contribute.

Eddie, in a wandering mood.

human nature theme Eddie more pure nature below

Riders on the Sky...
A beginning ( and soon ending) sheep breeder asked how often we wormed, vaccinated, lambed, culled, bought new sires, etc to keep these sheep so healthy...and the answer of course is, we let nature handle all those chores. ..ever mindful, that Larry said " nature doesn't have any bills to pay "...and neither do these sheep, but surely maternal breeding stock should be selected in much the same manner. ..a calf every year from such cows sired by terminal bulls will pay a lot of bills...and there will be far fewer bills to pay with adapted cows...especially if sired by your own bulls...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1351557048224990&set=pcb.1351564638224231&type=3&theater

fire and ice

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010637299461

MKeeney wrote:

human nature theme Eddie more pure nature below

Riders on the Sky...
A beginning ( and soon ending) sheep breeder asked how often we wormed, vaccinated, lambed, culled, bought new sires, etc to keep these sheep so healthy...and the answer of course is, we let nature handle all those chores. ..ever mindful, that Larry said " nature doesn't have any bills to pay "...and neither do these sheep, but surely maternal breeding stock should be selected in much the same manner. ..a calf every year from such cows sired by terminal bulls will pay a lot of bills...and there will be far fewer bills to pay with adapted cows...especially if sired by your own bulls...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1351557048224990&set=pcb.1351564638224231&type=3&theater

so Eddie, do we toss a Katahdin out in the middle of them and see whose progeny populates most?

MKeeney wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

human nature theme Eddie more pure nature below

Riders on the Sky...
A beginning ( and soon ending) sheep breeder asked how often we wormed, vaccinated, lambed, culled, bought new sires, etc to keep these sheep so healthy...and the answer of course is, we let nature handle all those chores. ..ever mindful, that Larry said " nature doesn't have any bills to pay "...and neither do these sheep, but surely maternal breeding stock should be selected in much the same manner. ..a calf every year from such cows sired by terminal bulls will pay a lot of bills...and there will be far fewer bills to pay with adapted cows...especially if sired by your own bulls...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1351557048224990&set=pcb.1351564638224231&type=3&theater

so Eddie, do we toss a Katahdin out in the middle of them and see whose progeny populates most?

Might or might not. Katahdins have an open flock book so whatever you want is a Katahdin is one in a few generations. Worked with a lady in LA some years back and Katahdins that were being selected for convenience and survival traits over a period of years began to look just like St. Croix sheep with an additional 20 - 30 pounds.

But a good Katahdin will add pounds if pounds make more money in your market. Lamb sells in max/min windows more than cattle. One reason NZ and AU lambs have a good foothold: right size - not too big. USA sheep folks: bigger is better and forget the customer.

I still think life was simpler when the world was flat.

eddie wrote:

Katahdins that were being selected for convenience and survival traits over a period of years began to look just like St. Croix sheep

same song, same verse in every species ...

MKeeney wrote:

eddie wrote:

Katahdins that were being selected for convenience and survival traits over a period of years began to look just like St. Croix sheep

same song, same verse in every species ...

Larry said the toughest decision what "how much cow do you want"? Another way of asking would be "how much cow are you willing to support?"

I want the most cow that requires the least support.

RobertMac wrote:

I want the most cow that requires the least support.

“You have been given questions to which you cannot be given answers. You will have to live them out - perhaps a little at a time.'
And how long is that going to take?'
I don't know. As long as you live, perhaps.'
That could be a long time.'
I will tell you a further mystery,' he said. 'It may take longer.”
― Wendell Berry, Jayber Crow

RobertMac wrote:

I want the most cow that requires the least support.

Probably depends on what part or function of the cow is your target for "most". If you want most milk, most muscle, most marbling and maybe most size - you might get survivors in base grazing conditions but will not get a look of perfection. Most fat? You can probably make that happen in an very economy sized cow.

If you want the most of it all: move to Iowa where, according to the pomp and pig latin of the disadvantaged site it is easy to obtain via ego and dollars. Iowa: the mecca for mumbo-jumbo and guaranteed mega-success. Leave me in the boonies of the other 49 where things are more of a norm. "But, here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all, hearts still get broken and it's real tears that fall, ..."

look at your grass and don't worry too much  about what perfected kind, just answer how many?

EddieM wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

human nature theme Eddie more pure nature below

Riders on the Sky...
A beginning ( and soon ending) sheep breeder asked how often we wormed, vaccinated, lambed, culled, bought new sires, etc to keep these sheep so healthy...and the answer of course is, we let nature handle all those chores. ..ever mindful, that Larry said " nature doesn't have any bills to pay "...and neither do these sheep, but surely maternal breeding stock should be selected in much the same manner. ..a calf every year from such cows sired by terminal bulls will pay a lot of bills...and there will be far fewer bills to pay with adapted cows...especially if sired by your own bulls...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1351557048224990&set=pcb.1351564638224231&type=3&theater

so Eddie, do we toss a Katahdin out in the middle of them and see whose progeny populates most?

Might or might not.  Katahdins have an open flock book so whatever you want is a Katahdin is one in a few generations.  Worked with a lady in LA some years back and Katahdins that were being selected for convenience and survival traits over a period of years began to look just like St. Croix sheep with an additional 20 - 30 pounds.  

But a good Katahdin will add pounds if pounds make more money in your market.  Lamb sells in max/min windows more than cattle.  One reason NZ and AU lambs have a good foothold: right size - not too big.  USA sheep folks: bigger is better and forget the customer.

I still think life was simpler when the world was flat.

an OMG  moment this afternoon; his meaty thick butt so clean of worminess



$10,000 or bring two NZ , whoops, that was a bull, bring two $5000 ewe lambs...I wrote him out some papers on a legal pad

EddieM wrote:

RobertMac wrote:

I want the most cow that requires the least support.

Probably depends on what part or function of the cow is your target for "most".  If you want most milk, most muscle, most marbling and maybe most size - you might get survivors in base grazing conditions but will not get a look of perfection.  Most fat?  You can probably make that happen in an very economy sized cow.

If you want the most of it all: move to Iowa where, according to the pomp and pig latin of the disadvantaged site it is easy to obtain via ego and dollars.  Iowa: the mecca for mumbo-jumbo and guaranteed mega-success. Leave me in the boonies of the other 49 where things are more of a norm.  "But, here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all, hearts still get broken and it's real tears that fall, ..."

Can't do Iowa...not enough dollars or big enough ego. I'll have to keep raising my Southern "road kill" cattle as long as I get paid "Iowa prime" prices.

By "most", I mean most functionally efficient which doesn't come from a single trait, but as a compromise on all.
My goal is not to get the highest bragging price, but to keep most of what I get paid in my pocket. That money is made on the front end.

RobertMac wrote:

EddieM wrote:

RobertMac wrote:

I want the most cow that requires the least support.

Probably depends on what part or function of the cow is your target for "most".  If you want most milk, most muscle, most marbling and maybe most size - you might get survivors in base grazing conditions but will not get a look of perfection.  Most fat?  You can probably make that happen in an very economy sized cow.

If you want the most of it all: move to Iowa where, according to the pomp and pig latin of the disadvantaged site it is easy to obtain via ego and dollars.  Iowa: the mecca for mumbo-jumbo and guaranteed mega-success. Leave me in the boonies of the other 49 where things are more of a norm.  "But, here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all, hearts still get broken and it's real tears that fall, ..."

Can't do Iowa...not enough dollars or big enough ego. I'll have to keep raising my Southern "road kill" cattle as long as I get paid "Iowa prime" prices.

By "most", I mean most functionally efficient which doesn't come from a single trait, but as a compromise on all.
My goal is not to get the highest bragging price, but to keep most of what I get paid in my pocket. That money is made on the front end.

We already know that minimal comes with the most horns. Not the tooting kind.

The near perfect cow, the near perfect ram, the near perfect bull; all so near and yet so far away. They either exist in the past or the future but never are here in the present. Will it need to be a Viking moment to make it great or a 2018 calf crop? Could it be that the seeking of near perfect is a disease? What if we were satisfied with the current bulls out breeding cows because we had success with the sires, the dams, or tried to read the Bonsma tea leaves to tweak a little closer? Is a well functioning and environmentally fit bull with meager identification or basic registration inferior to the great bulls of the past or are these current bulls the same in that they deliver what we need when we need it?

Had to laugh today as a buyer looked at two particular bulls from a group of 4. Sire and grandsire there were largely ignored trying to see differences in the two sale bulls. But what about the other one not offered or the equal looking bull (maybe a bit better looking) that could be higher BW according to EPDs but isn't? I slung out some scientific info: "They will all breed about the same". I do not believe that the buyer was excited as he wondered if the bulls could breed at 15 months old. I repeated that two others passed BSEs a month ago and one is with our heifers. Been doing it for years. Not a testimonial of riches, fame or sports related: not worth much, those work and wear, common man endorsements. Neighbors around them have been highly successful as buyers and repeat customers. Must have been a fluke.

I could have possibly sold one easier to have put different prices on each bull so that the buyer could have saved money on the least cost or bought the best for the most cost. I made the mistake to ask if they would like to see the cows (dams) or the bulls first? Oh, no, I wanted to look at bulls! Personally, I'd rather see the cows and then pick the bulls (sons) sight unseen. I'd know more, I think.

Eddie, Imperfect

more imperfections...the Irish have pecker problems, displayed in beautiful format , discovered as I search for a more serious way to promote and sell bulls..

http://www.cattleinmotion.com/lots/gallery/160930Woodstone

what a beautiful set of 2 yr old heifers...video section below the catalog...

http://www.cattleinmotion.com/issuu/hereford-alliance-sale-larson-polled-herefords-0

I don`t guess we ever left as great a % calves as bulls from the two yr old heifers...not because we expect to sell a bunch of ce bulls, but because they mothers are so pleasing...

Spent most of yesterday working lambs from the near perfect sheep flock. Sure is a day to dread but it is over now. Need better facilities, a work crew, and a bit cooler day. But all survived, including me. I lived to post again! A few less ticks than in the past due to something other than my poor management. Now to the part that is always a the oddest: sales. Nice to meet folks and it is a part of the farm cycle where most livestock folks find to be needful and yet not their cup of tea.

But on we go and if I ever get good at sales I will make a million on the sale of seeds from 2017 giant thistles. The drought left bare spots and the thistles found them. I have to console myself and think of the good the thistles do to soil health and bring up all of those minerals and nutrients to the soil surface for future forage plants while aerating the root zone. Sounds good enough to be in the opinion section of a "small cow for big prices" newsletter. Maybe I am ready to sell used cars and one-owner sheep!

Eddie, with low mileage sheep

"If you have competence, you know the edge. It wouldn't be a competence if you didn't know where the boundaries lie. Asking whether you've passed the boundary is a question that almost answers itself." – Charlie Munger

1- First bull to show of this line:
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2- Son of 1 that is full brother to 3
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3- Full brother of 2 and son of 1
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4- Paternal half brother of 2 and 3
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5- Kick in a different sire but same dam as 2 & 3.
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Let's see what comes out in the wash.  I'll let you know in 10 years.  But ask me now: I am quite content to let the catalogs and hype go by.  It doesn't matter what they were but that they work here.  Why go to a casino when you can breed livestock?

Eddie, all home-raised and all home happy

Well, the reports of my death or exit have been greatly exaggerated.  I'm here, talking to myself, enjoying the conversation and waiting my years to see if I have made the right choices in cows and sheep.  No superlatives needed to discuss stuff.  Just ear tag numbers, a knowledge of the backgrounds for those who care (including me and the shadow), some records and comparatives, a dash of Bonsma, plans for pastures and what happens will happen.  I need to find my shadow picture from the 2016 Gathering. It represents me well.  I am a void looking to be filled with information, discovery, good stuff and a better way.  I took pictures on the same trip of other folks talking, action shots, groups mingling but I sort of like the unknown status of "the shadow".  I guess I could twist it to be the "Unknown Cattle Guy" like the old unknown comic but it is too hot and humid to put a paper bag over my head with eye holes even though that would help with the gnats but some unattractive lady might think I am on the troll for a mate or something. There was an old joke about two bags years ago if you are old enough to remember.  And the sheriff might think I am wanting something that isn't mine so I'll just stick to the shadow picture and avoid the bag.



Unknown, unappreciated, not admired, kicked off of Disadvantage for stating my mind in public, small herd guy, misunderstood, talking to my shadow; the cows don't seem to mind and none of them call me by name anyway but they do recognize the sound of the truck.  And to be honest, I don't mind.  Seems like years ought to count for a higher college degree if we learn something.  If we bred cows for our fame we would not bred the right cows. Sure doesn't seem that a lot of education and the educated have improved cattle or stabilized a type.  Hollywood never had a famed "Superbull" but did have a talking horse.  If we had a superbull it would be a mess with him flying over the fences, anyhow.  In actuality we sometimes fall into the right cows and fail with the expected best cows with or without the summa cum laude of experiences, fame or whatever some seem to want to make everybody else lockstep as part of livestock breeding.

It takes all kind of cows, it seems: the survivors of the desert, Al's reported grinders of the SW, the woolly marbled mammoths of Iowa, the slick fescue eaters in KY out on road trips and the fly swatters here in SC.  All of the regional pride and greatness, if it exists and we can afford it, has little bearing on anything as we all have different environments.  

Please do not stir up any interest of me posting anywhere else.  If I never post again on any site it will not mean more or less to me.  I greatly appreciate the years that Larry wrote and talked and schooled me, there have been friendships made along the way, there are folks who I have figured out will not be writing any sympathy cards when I meet the day of earthly death but it takes all kinds.  But for all of you who know me or knew me or wish you had never heard of me, a very sincere "Thank You".  You've encouraged, you've befriended, you've argued, you've educated, you've hardened my goal and my focus and put some "stuff" in my shadow.  You've done great.  Life is not about what we get but what we give or share. I hope I have helped some, too.

I don't think best takes but two kinds of cows, our type and zebu, how many cows matters much more ...raised at home matters, but the type is the same... but if we're both wrong , the opposite LL will soon have fescue adapted Stabilizers for sale in NC...you might know stabilizers as crossbreds